- cross-posted to:
- leopardsatemyface@lemmy.world
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The “if you’re criticizing Israel then you are an antisemitic” argument is getting really really old and fucking tired.
I have never in my life had any issues with anyone who is Jewish just because they are Jewish. Nor will I ever. But I have serious issues with the state of Israel committing war crimes on a daily basis and expecting not to be held accountable.
100%, fuck the country of Israel, the people leading the country, and the people hands on murdering civilians. Death to the IDF.
My Jewish friends never bought into it either.
I’ve met many Jewish people. Who have spoken like Psycopaths about murdering Islamists and anyone they consider an “ENEMY” of Jewish people. Not all Jewish people are evil like this. But from my anecdotal experience. Jewish people support criminal organizations that steal from everyone with the Jewish Mafia being an unspoken evil arm of their operations.
I question the intelligence of any person that believes in a religion. You’re just telling me. You need fantasy stories to make you a good person. Which tells me that you’re really a terrible person without your fake stories.
I dunno, sounds like a fake story to me
Islamists are fundamentalists btw, so exactly the kind of religious zealots you seem to despise
attacking a defenseless neighboring people
They’re so close to figuring it out
They know. They like committing genocide. They just don’t want international consequences for it.
Its antisemitic to say its bad to bomb defenseless people…
They’re mad that they’re identifying with the genocidal, colonizing villains of the story?
I keep expecting Jeff Bezos to get angry at the portrayal of Lex Luthor to top it off.
Well, if the shoe fits.
I see where Trump got his name calling ideas from.
All of “his” ideas.
Oh wow. I didn’t know he was controversial from the start.
Does Nazis not liking something really make it controversial?
If there are a lot of Nazis, then, yes?
Sealing wax, wow sick burn…
…if used carelessly.
Jerry “Sealing Wax” (Siegallack)
holy shit the nazis always had 4chan humor even in the 1930s
“If the shoe fits”… So maybe sit with your thoughts a bit longer to a logical conclusion instead of jumping to social media to dump your little thought vomit.
This complaint is such an admission. They can’t point to a single similarly between Israel and the bad guys in the movie except, “nation with technology advanced weaponry being deployed against unarmed civilians,” and they’re not even disputing that that’s an accurate depiction of what’s happening. It’s not like they’re saying, “this movie parallels Hamas propaganda.” They’re saying, “depicting colonial genocide negatively is anti-Israel.”
Andor is just one such example of this.
This shit is why I joke that every work of fiction needs to end with the protagonist staring directly at the camera and explaining what the audience is supposed to take away from it, 1950’s style, because people are too stupid for subtlety. Yes, yes, very clever to name the site of a genocide “G[horman Pl]aza,” and have a character specifically emphasize the word “genocide” in a Senate chamber, but StrikeEagle784 sees all that and goes, “Wow, cool lasers” without understanding anything about anything.
Now, imagine if Andor ended with Cassian taking a seat and saying, “Hi, I’m Cassian Andor, and I hope you enjoyed the show. Were you moved by the plight of the Ghormans and inspired to fight the Empire? Well, just like how the Empire conducted a genocide against Ghorman, in real life, the US and Israel are committing genocide against the people of Gaza. That’s actually the reason why that’s in the show. Early on, I tried to turn a blind eye to injustice, but I found that ignoring the problem didn’t make it go away. This is also true in real life. In summary, the genocide in Gaza is bad and you should do something about it.”
Would that be stupid and annoying? Yes. But this is the level of art that we deserve. At least, it’s the level of art that StrikeEagle784 deserves.
Yes, yes, very clever to name the site of a genocide “G[horman Pl]aza,” and have a character specifically emphasize the word “genocide” in a Senate chamber […]
🤯 Holy shit that’s brilliant!
Yes, Star Wars Rebels is so brilliant that they were referencing the Isreal-Hamas war in 2017.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Secret_Cargo
Y’all are sounding like qanons with your numerology now.
Ctrl+F plaza
Phrase not found.
This is the platonic ideal of thinking history started in 2023
News flash bub, they’ve been killing each other for a while now. Since, let me check my notes, before Israel was even a modern country.
Very well put. However, the last part is up to you and yours, not them. Exactly what you’re doing with this comment, do it in real life, and have others do it too. Spread the word from inside out, because that’s where the heart is. That’s where REAL change happens, the people closest to you. Get THEM on board, and make them advocates. That’s how we change.
I don’t want to be the “Um, ackshually” guy, because I could see how the events in Andor can draw parallels to modern day events going on, but that’s more a byproduct of history endlessly repeating itself than any kind or profound political statement being made by the showrunners.
Case in point, the Ghorman Massacre was part of legends continuity long before the current snafu between Israel and Palastine became a politically charged topic and was loosely based on the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in India.
It is very telling that people are seeing something like Star Wars, which is well known for boiling down everything into binary good-versus-evil themes, and self-identifying with the bad guys because it resembles something their government has done recently.
The Ghorman Massacre was even in the new continuity as of (at least) the 2017 Rebels episode Secret Cargo.
And in Andor, the aesthetics were obviously drawing on the French Resistance in WWII.
But this doesn’t mean the parallels to Israel and Gaza were not there. The “history repeats” aspect might be part of it, but because this was the first time the Ghorman Massacre was portrayed on screen in current canon, they had considerable leeway in how they told the story, what events framed it, and what parallels they were trying to draw.
There’s a reason they chose to rewrite Mon Mothma’s speech in the Senate from the one shown in Rebels, and that is that they wanted it to tell their message. They chose to frame it as a genocide that the overall population is wilfully ignoring. They chose to have disinformation campaigns coming from those in power which present the Ghormans not as the oppressed group of freedom fighters that they truly are, but as terrorists receiving aid from outside. They chose to show the Empire as willing to deliberately kill their own and have it blamed on the “terrorists”. Heck, they chose to place it in a place specifically called, as @Objection@lemmy.ml notes, the Ghorman Plaza.
Still, even if it is directly informed by the Gaza genocide itself, it’s obviously not meant to be a perfect allegory. It’s meant to be broadly applicable to all sorts of freedom fighting against oppressive authoritarian states.
To quote the grandfather of the very genre in which Star Wars as a franchise* sits:
I much prefer history – true or feigned – with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
La mort de l’auteur. The best literature can be applied to a wide variety of real-world situations, depending on what the audience’s personal history is and which elements of the art they choose to concentrate on. So the Zionists look at the WWII French aesthetics and cling to that desperate to ignore the parallels to the crimes they themselves are complicit in. The most literate audience brings their own perspective, but also opens themselves up to hear other perspectives, and thus sees that there are multiple possible readings. The narrow-minded audience picks their interpretation and uses it as a reason to reject others.
* I would argue that Andor as a show is really a political thriller and science-fiction. But the core movies and most of the animated shows are fantasy.
So there’s a planet famous for producing silk where peaceful protesters are massacred in a public square and you only think of Gaza? There is definitely no place on Earth like that other than Gaza!
I’m pretty sure the Israel Gaza war kicked off with terrorists masscring people in villages and taking hostages, but it wasn’t the IDF doing that shit. Did Andor portray that at all?
I tried to find clips to see what it’s referencing some more but holy shit that show is 90% pretentious speeches. But even then it’s pretty obvious.
You are correct there are some people that need things spelled out for them or they don’t understand it. Some even resort to Qanon style numerology to try to prove weird connections between things.
Anyway, which silk producing country massacred peaceful protesters in a public square? Come on… .you can figure it out! Somewhere where vehicles were used to crush protesters? Maybe someone made a memorial and an authoritarian regime took it down… Hint
Israel Gaza war kicked off
When great Britain partitioned off land and help kick out the population.
Weird how that’s also what happened in Andor…
And of course the zionist is trying to deflect it to a different situation
Sure… we’d all be better off if only the Ottoman empire continued to exist forever!
SMH
You’re ignorance of history matches ignorance for star wars lore.
Thanks for the link!
I was aware of it being referenced in 2017 in Star Wars Rebels, but I wasn’t aware it was in Legends in the 1990s.
Unironically yes, what are you talking about? The region was way more peaceful before the Ottoman empire fell than it has been since.
Ottomans also kept huge populations of Jewish people safe from Christian pogroms
So Armenian and Greek genocides did not happen? Do you think life was great for non Turks/Muslims before that? There were no massacres of Christians?
Armenian genocide happened after the fall of the empire.
I said it was relatively more peaceful then than it is now. Not that nothing bad happened back then but COMPARED TO NOW? SERIOUSLY?
??? More than a million each dead of Armenians and Greeks, successfull ethnic cleansing of Asia Minor of said minorities.
I understand that you are not from a region occupied by the Ottoman empire and you have a simplistic mindview of Muslim’s always good, Christians always bad. However saying the Ottoman empire should not have fallen is deeply offensive, certainly in the Balkans and I would wager in the Levante as well. The Arabs did rebel against them after all. With British support, just like every rebellion tries to get outside support.
Whataboutism
See, again, people like this are exactly why we need the protagonist to look directly at the camera and explain things to them. Because the average Westerner’s worldview is so propagandized that when they see a work critiquing their own government, they assume that it must be about foreigners, because obviously we’re number one and everyone else is worse than us. If you make a US allegory look bad, they assume it couldn’t possibly be about the US. Combination of media illiteracy and a delusional, chauvinistic worldview.
I’m pretty sure the Israel Gaza war kicked off with terrorists masscring people in villages and taking hostages, but it wasn’t the IDF doing that shit. Did Andor portray that at all?
Well, the show kicks off with Andor shooting two corporate security guards, after they tried to rob him. Does that count? I mean, it’s not like Palestinian resistance to Israeli colonization and apartheid is unprovoked.
Anyway, which silk producing country massacred peaceful protesters in a public square?
The silk producing planet did not massacre peaceful protesters in a public square. The Empire, an occupying force in Ghorman, massacred Ghormans. I guess if Ghormans had massacred Imperials, your China comparison might make a certain amount of sense. But that’s the complete opposite of what happened in the show, where the “silk producing planet” was the victim of genocide, not the perpetrator.
Incidentally, Gaza is also famous for textiles, or at least, it was, before the dark times. Before the Empire.
Next you’re going to tell me that the original trilogy wasn’t about the Vietnam War
Which country do you think the people masscred in Tiananmen square were from? Were the people massacred there people known for making silk?
Why would they be referencing silk at all? Yeah they referenced silk thinking “I’m sure people will get get the connection from silk to textiles to Palestinians.”
The Ghorman massacre was referenced in Star Wars Rebels in 2017 and was referenced in the EU in the 1990s FFS. Do you really think the people making Star Wars are clairvoyant? Tianamen Square would’ve been fresh in the minds of people in the 90s I think it’s more likely referencing that event than events that hadn’t happened yet.
See, again, people like this are exactly why we need the protagonist to look directly at the camera and explain things to them.
Indeed.
The Ghorman massacre was referenced
Ghorman has been a part of Star Wars lore for ages, yes. There is nothing about the word “Ghorman” that connects it to Gaza. The things that connect it to Gaza are mainly twofold, first, the specific phrase “Ghorman Plaza,” (which did not exist in the lore prior to Andor, to my knowledge) and second, the intentional use of the word “genocide” in connection to it, especially in Mon Mothma’s speech. Just “Ghorman” vs “The genocide in Ghorman Plaza” is a huge difference.What the writers did was to take an existing, largely undefined part of Star Wars lore, and flesh it out in a way that ties in to current events.
I have no clue why you think I’m saying the word “Ghorman” has anything to do with Gaza, on it’s own or as it existed in the lore.
Which country do you think the people masscred in Tiananmen square were from? Were the people massacred there people known for making silk?
This is incredibly dumb, and I’m just highlighting this part of your comment as an example to others of how far a brain is capable of stretching something to make it be about what the person wants it to be about. Obviously, there’s no reasoning with that, but the whole plot regarding Ghorman revolves around a foreign, occupying force planning to exterminate or drive out a population in order to seize resources. There is zero connection to China, apart from silk.
Yeah they referenced silk thinking “I’m sure people will get get the connection from silk to textiles to Palestinians.”
People in the Star Wars universe probably don’t really remember Ghorman as “the place that makes silk” in the same way people from our universe don’t think of Palestine as “the place that makes textiles.” But it’s important to be included to illustrate that Ghorman had an economy and culture before it became known as the site of a massacre, regardless of the Empire’s attempts to erase it, in the same way that it’s important to remember Palestinian culture despite Zionist attempts to reduce them to animals. I doubt the audience was expected to specifically to make the connection, but even if you’re unaware of Gaza’s history with textiles (and even if it wasn’t intentional), it still conveys the message in broad strokes.
Obviously, this wouldn’t convey anything meaningful if it were about China. But then, that’s the level on which reactionaries understand art.
Did Andor portray that at all?
The empire depicting the Gorman resistance as evil terrorists who attacked unprovoked was indeed depicted in Andor.
history started on October 7
another dumbfuck
Someone have context if we haven’t seen the new superman?
Also I want to scream a million times. Israel isn’t Judaism and Judaism isn’t Israel! Mixing that up is problematic because you’re confounding anti-zionism (a settler colonial state project committing genocide) with anti-semitism.
Israel isn’t Judaism and Judaism isn’t Israel! Mixing that up is problematic because you’re confounding anti-zionism (a settler colonial state project committing genocide) with anti-semitism.
Mixing that up is intentional, so that you can be accused of being antisemitic by not supporting Israel. Politicians love to do this.
Politicians love to do this.
Fuck, anyone with an agenda anymore!
At the start of the movie, Superman has just stopped an invasion. The fictional country Barovia, a US ally, has advanced weaponry and attempts to invade and annex a much smaller and poorer fictional country Jarhanpur which doesn’t appear to have a military of any kind. Barovia is ethnically white (coded as Eastern European/Russian) and Jarhanpur is ethnically more middle eastern.
It is not a giant leap to correlate these countries to Isreal and Palestine, but really those superficial details are where the the similarities begin and end. There is no apparent religious connection to the invasion, nor terrorist activity. No ongoing tensions, direct involvement from the US goverment in the invasion, or any act of war or other event that triggers Barovia to invade. It is just a powerful country attacking a smaller country for their resources on the orders of a power hungry dictator. It’s a trope that is not exclusively related to current events, that made as much sense 50 years ago as it does today. And the purpose of it in the film is to both critique Superman’s naivete of geopolitics, and to reinforce his values that every life matters.
People that are mad about it and pretending that it is explicitly a depiction of the Isreali-Palestinian war are projecting meaning that isn’t there, at least beyond maybe some subtext. It’s always a bit telling when people see generic bad guys in a movie and think, “this is about me!” But, of course, if they felt that the depiction of the overwhelming military force against civilians made the Palestinians seem sympathetic to them… maybe they should think a bit more about why that is.
Off topic question but is the country really Barovia? That’s a hilarious nod to Dungeons and dragons if so
No I was wrong. It’s the almost identically named Boravia. Getting my fantasy settings mixed up. Boravia has been in DC comics since Superman #2 in 1939 though, so not a nod to DnD. Maybe the other way around.
So it’s Borat’s country then
Borat is canonically from Kazakhstan, which is a real-life country.
I mean, what else could it be? Stalwart American ally coded white with advanced weaponry attacking mostly defenceless brown neighbors without cause and with the intention of occupation and annexation. Their weaponry is mostly from America. The cherry on top, they would scede some of the land to an American billionaire.
I said that it wasn’t a leap to connect it to Isreal and Palestine. Depending on the details you fixate on though, I’m sure you could connect it to any number of real life historical conflicts. The Isreali Palestine conflict/genocide just has the benefit of being at the forefront of our minds, and I’m sure at least some of the similarities are actually intentional. But it’s not so close as to make it unquestionable that they are one and the same.
But I can’t think of any other conflict it would match.
The Reconquest of Spain? White Eurpoeans pushing out Middle Easter occupiers, made possible in part by advancements in war technology.
Some of the Crusades? White Europeans annexing a foreign land of Middle Eastern people, using advanced armor and seige weapons.
Colonization of North America? White Europeans annexing a foreign land and displacing it’s much less technologically advanced darker skinned inhabitants?
World War II? Advanced German war technology and annexing their peaceful neighbors?
Russian-Ukraine War? White Russians attempting to annex the lands of their neighboring nation unprovoked for a land grab using what would have been their overwhelming war technology without international help, all while Russia lies and claims to be liberating the people.
I haven’t seen it, but I think it’s pretty apparent in the trailer. Superman is supermaning, and modern powers, both real and fictional, don’t like that.
“Superman has somehow become the focal point of the entire world’s attention and I cannot accept that.”
Damn, Lex Luther is even more an Elon Musk type in this movie huh?
Saw it last night, and yes. Lex had more than one scene inspired by actual Musk actions.
Which is a shame, because classic Luthor had extremely valid concerns about ceding ultimate power to someone you can’t take it back away from. He used to be one of the most sensible “villains” I knew of.
I can’t actually watch videos especially trailer types with lots of movement due to a disability. So was wondering if anyone had a text based interpretation.
The president of the USA is mad at Superman for stopping a hypermodern army from destroying brown people and stealing their land
That does have some interesting parralells. But I think it says more that zionists see it and take the other side!
The “evil” president out to kill brown children looks like Netanyahu.
Why are there a bunch of random people just hanging out in seemingly the middle of nowhere lol
Its really simple:
If you are a Zionist, Israel=Zionism=Judaism.
If you are not a Zionist, Israel<>Zionism<>Judaism.
The non Zionists are objectively correct, but Zionists are extremely good at intentionally not understanding this.
Its really no different than any member of any religion that cannot concieve of a non-objective, non-universal morality system.
They are brainwashed, propogandized, and cannot divorce the concepts, because they’ve been so strongly confounded and confabulated together in ways that are actually not logically consistent, but held together with an explicitly irrational faith.
If you are not a Zionist, Israel<>Zionism<>Judaism.
Zionist, Israel=/=Zionism=/=Judaism.
FTFY
<> is ‘not equal’ in SQL syntax
!= is another one for ‘not equal’ in SQL, and a good deal of other languages, but I went with <> because of the ls and Is, <> is more visually distinct.
His is a common syntax for not equals. Yours is just what people use when they dont know how to make the math symbol ≠
His is correct, yours isn’t. If you want to assert the math symbol is the only correct one, at least actually use it
Well, if the shoe fits.
I like how they don’t even bother saying it’s a lie. They just say it’s aimed at them.
Yes it is totally Hollywood making Israel look bad, not the shooting caged brown people part.
The movie unironically blasted Israel beyond a shadow of a doubt. Pretty insane after Bassem Youssef supposedly got fired as superman for being anti Israel 2 years ago. James Gunn redemption arc.
Bloody anti-Semitic Hollywood. It’s so typical and clearly there are no Jews working there…
“they’re showing a country of mostly white people invading and brutalizing a defenseless country of brown people which is clearly about Israel-palestine”
c/selfawarewolves
I can all but guarantee that’s an American writing that comment anyway.
They look pretty much the same in terms of skin tone. It’s not whites vs browns. They all just look Mediterranean, which isn’t that surprising because that’s where they are. Palestinians are a lot lighter than people seem to think.
Unless we’re going with the US definition of race, in which anybody coming from a poor country is non-white. I mean, they used to think the Italians and Irish weren’t white.
They used to think the Italians and Irish weren’t white.
They look pretty much the same in terms of skin tone. It’s not whites vs browns. They all just look Mediterranean
Who? Israel’s dominant sociopolitical group are Ashkenazi. They’re white. Pretending it’s Mediterraneans vs Mediterraneans is playing into the Israeli lie that Jewish people are the true native people in Canaan and everyone else is an outside invader. When in reality some Jews are native to the area, just as the Palestinians are. But certainly not the 20th century neocolonial supremacist state of Israel.
Uhm, you do realize that French, Spaniards, italians,… are also considered white nowadays and are mediterranian?
Wait, I thought the Jews ran Hollywood and controlled all of the media? How is it possible a movie like this exists?
That’s the radical left you’re talking about
That being said. Free palestine ♡
Oh I guess I’m going to see the new Superman now.
Plot twist: it’s all a marketing scheme to get you to watch another shitty comic book movie.
DC needs its moment, though. There are so many good characters to explore.
