I personally really like Matrix, but there are a few outstanding complaints about it. The biggest one is that the reference implementation everyone uses by default is known to be bloated and slow, and poor at scaling. Server admins have had a huge challenge of supporting a large amount of data for things like room history, which in the past required propagation to every server hosting every participant. The protocol itself has been described by some developers as overtly complex.
Some of this seems to be improving, particularly with development of a Go-based backend implementation, Dendrite.
It’s funny. When I was typing my original response, I was under the impression that Dendrite was Rust-based! 😂 I’m really glad I checked before posting!
@deadsuperhero
> development of a Go-based backend implementation, Dendrite
Also Rust-based homeserver implementations like Construct and Conduit. Both of which are usable, although missing a few nice-to-have added features. Eg Conduit is still working on;
“E2EE emoji comparison over federation (E2EE chat works)… Outgoing read receipts, typing, presence over federation”
Good to know. I signed up for beeper.com which seems cool. I am a bit concerned about data collection and privacy, so I’m trying to set up my own instance.
I’m not even close to an expert, but from what I have heard, matrix collects quite a bit of metadata depending on the server you are using/federating with.
Yes, it does not protect metadata great. It is visible that you and your interlocutor are talking together and when.
But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systems. You rather have less metadata in centralized place for everyone or more metadata but only for small subset of people.
@smileyhead
> But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systems
You’ve basically got a choice been a centralised service where metadata can be limited but E2EE is mostly pointless (you have to trust the service operators’ E2EE deployment), or a decentralised network where E2EE is reliable, but it’s harder to limit metadata.
Which one is best depends on the situation/ threat model.
IRC is only “outdated” if you make it so by using outdated networks like libera.chat that refuse to implement the newer standards that have been available for years.
For some weird reason many people just plain ignore the existance of XMPP when they’re discussing decentralized protocols. Is it because Matrix outshadowed it?
There is this wierd meme that IRC is “outdated” and XMPP is “dead”, both of which is completely untrue, but somehow the tech-bro hivemind continues to spout this nonsense when ever the topic comes up.
AFAIK the most complained about thing with xmpp is that there are so many standards and every server isn’t guaranteed to implement them. That and just being old which is no curse but people take that as a negative sometimes.
Feels like Jabber has been around for a long time. If I’m not mistaken I remember my buddy pimping it as an AIM alternative back in the Napster/mp3 days.
Give it another look. The popular Android client Conversations is getting an UI overhaul right now (unreleased), Monal for iOS has also improved a lot, and this is a promising looking take on a Telegram like UI: https://moxxy.org/
Dino and Gajim also improved a lot on the desktop side. Overall there is some renewed interest by client developers and the Jabber federation is growing again I think.
@deadsuperhero
I agree, I use xmpp all the time, but the clients are really underwhelming… Not sure how it’s so complicated to give them a facelift to update them while keeping the existing functionality. This reminds me of the debates about the #blender ui in the past, where gray beards argued that the interface was just fine…aesthetics matter;) @poVoq
Matrix is getting better on fast peace, we need to give it another yew years to fix biggest holes I guess.
ActivityPub based chat is going to suck much. Like basing chat on RSS or FTP, it can be done but why.
Unless we’re talking just about replicating Instagram-like DMs then maybeee? But I still would like to just add link to Matrix in bio instead of having chat in yet another place.
unfortunately matrix sucks revolt isn’t federated and irc is outdated so
I just learned about Matrix recently. Seems like something that’d be good. What sucks about it?
Besides the main implementation synapse being slow, the new implementation dendrite is unfinished but progressing.
But technical standards aside, the hassle of managing encryption keys is too buggy and confusing IMO. That’ll deter most people I feel.
I want it to be great but it just isn’t there yet.
I personally really like Matrix, but there are a few outstanding complaints about it. The biggest one is that the reference implementation everyone uses by default is known to be bloated and slow, and poor at scaling. Server admins have had a huge challenge of supporting a large amount of data for things like room history, which in the past required propagation to every server hosting every participant. The protocol itself has been described by some developers as overtly complex.
Some of this seems to be improving, particularly with development of a Go-based backend implementation, Dendrite.
And if dendrite fail, we wait for the rust-based backend implementation. :)
It’s funny. When I was typing my original response, I was under the impression that Dendrite was Rust-based! 😂 I’m really glad I checked before posting!
Fun fact. I didn’t made a joke. There is a rust based version in alpha state. But I don’t remember it’s codename.
Edit: okay, it has no codename:
https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk
Oh, I thought that was just a client SDK. Is it an actual server backend?
@deadsuperhero
> the reference implementation everyone uses by default is known to be bloated and slow, and poor at scaling
This doesn’t seem to stop the fediverse growing (*cough* Mastodon *cough*).
@Terevos
@deadsuperhero
> development of a Go-based backend implementation, Dendrite
Also Rust-based homeserver implementations like Construct and Conduit. Both of which are usable, although missing a few nice-to-have added features. Eg Conduit is still working on;
“E2EE emoji comparison over federation (E2EE chat works)… Outgoing read receipts, typing, presence over federation”
@Terevos @Samsy
Good to know. I signed up for beeper.com which seems cool. I am a bit concerned about data collection and privacy, so I’m trying to set up my own instance.
I’m not even close to an expert, but from what I have heard, matrix collects quite a bit of metadata depending on the server you are using/federating with.
Yes, it does not protect metadata great. It is visible that you and your interlocutor are talking together and when.
But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systems. You rather have less metadata in centralized place for everyone or more metadata but only for small subset of people.
@smileyhead
> But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systems
You’ve basically got a choice been a centralised service where metadata can be limited but E2EE is mostly pointless (you have to trust the service operators’ E2EE deployment), or a decentralised network where E2EE is reliable, but it’s harder to limit metadata.
Which one is best depends on the situation/ threat model.
@AngryDemonoid
Yeah, I have been concerned about that. Looking into self-hosting matrix.
IRC is only “outdated” if you make it so by using outdated networks like libera.chat that refuse to implement the newer standards that have been available for years.
Oh and XMPP is a thing and works great.
For some weird reason many people just plain ignore the existance of XMPP when they’re discussing decentralized protocols. Is it because Matrix outshadowed it?
There is this wierd meme that IRC is “outdated” and XMPP is “dead”, both of which is completely untrue, but somehow the tech-bro hivemind continues to spout this nonsense when ever the topic comes up.
AFAIK the most complained about thing with xmpp is that there are so many standards and every server isn’t guaranteed to implement them. That and just being old which is no curse but people take that as a negative sometimes.
It’s honestly pretty good IMO.
Thank you, Ive seen this repeatedly and now Ive been better informed.
Feels like Jabber has been around for a long time. If I’m not mistaken I remember my buddy pimping it as an AIM alternative back in the Napster/mp3 days.
XMPP is fantastic, but I feel as though it suffers from half-baked clients, most of which are a decade old and look the part.
I’d really love to see a “modern” WhatsApp-like take on an XMPP messenger, but I haven’t found any. Admittedly, I haven’t looked in some time.
Give it another look. The popular Android client Conversations is getting an UI overhaul right now (unreleased), Monal for iOS has also improved a lot, and this is a promising looking take on a Telegram like UI: https://moxxy.org/
Dino and Gajim also improved a lot on the desktop side. Overall there is some renewed interest by client developers and the Jabber federation is growing again I think.
That’s really great news! I’ll look into those. 😁
@deadsuperhero
> I’d really love to see a “modern” WhatsApp-like take on an XMPP messenger, but I haven’t found any
Have you looked at @snikket_im ?
@poVoq @lps
@deadsuperhero
I agree, I use xmpp all the time, but the clients are really underwhelming… Not sure how it’s so complicated to give them a facelift to update them while keeping the existing functionality. This reminds me of the debates about the #blender ui in the past, where gray beards argued that the interface was just fine…aesthetics matter;)
@poVoq
Same with K9. But they did finally a really good facelift.
@Samsy
I’ll need to take a look, I haven’t used k9 in ages
Its one of the best apps actually. Swipe gestures, openpgp, material you (?).
@Samsy
Wow, you were right very nice. Amazing what a little polish can do.
Another app that transformed with UI updates is gajim, the desktop xmpp client.
Matrix is getting better on fast peace, we need to give it another yew years to fix biggest holes I guess.
ActivityPub based chat is going to suck much. Like basing chat on RSS or FTP, it can be done but why. Unless we’re talking just about replicating Instagram-like DMs then maybeee? But I still would like to just add link to Matrix in bio instead of having chat in yet another place.
I think that’s exactly the niche this intends to fill. This is facebook messenger for the fediverse.