- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
She finds the whole idea absurd. To Prof Marci Shore, the notion that the Guardian, or anyone else, should want to interview her about the future of the US is ridiculous. She’s an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe and describes herself as a “Slavicist”, yet here she is, suddenly besieged by international journalists keen to ask about the country in which she insists she has no expertise: her own. “It’s kind of baffling,” she says.
In fact, the explanation is simple enough. Last month, Shore, together with her husband and fellow scholar of European history, Timothy Snyder, and the academic Jason Stanley, made news around the world when they announced that they were moving from Yale University in the US to the University of Toronto in Canada. It was not the move itself so much as their motive that garnered attention. As the headline of a short video op-ed the trio made for the New York Times put it, “We Study Fascism, and We’re Leaving the US”.
Starkly, Shore invoked the ultimate warning from history. “The lesson of 1933 is: you get out sooner rather than later.” She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake. “My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’ I thought, my God, we’re like people on the Titanic saying, ‘Our ship can’t sink. We’ve got the best ship. We’ve got the strongest ship. We’ve got the biggest ship.’ And what you know as a historian is that there is no such thing as a ship that can’t sink.”
That’s a shit lesson to take from 33. My takeaway is don’t let the brown shirts win. I’m not running from my country with my tail between my legs.
Fascists can fuck off, in fact
707 millions just assembled to say just that.If you read the rest of the article, she addresses that. She doesn’t believe that she is personally brave enough to physically confront what is coming, so for her, the choice is get out now while she can and be vocal.
What a matter of fact way to express cowardice
Much better to be self aware of it and account for it, than to get yourself and others killed due to your false bravado.
It doesn’t take much bravery to stand in a crowd with hundreds or thousands of other people.
Lol, you think this is going to end with just calmly standing in a crowd?
Statistically if the crowd is big enough it should end. But I kinda think if Trump kicks the bucket or lets Steven Miller have any more power, that getting out with my family will be necessary.
Probably not, but that’s the most that’s been asked of this lady so far and she couldn’t even muster the courage to do that. Running away before you make any attempt to fight for all the people who made you who you are is some weak shit.
Again, being aware of your own limitations and doing what you can is preferable to faking it, and falling apart when it counts.
Not everyone can be a super tough guy like you surely are.
It’s not about being tough physically it’s about deciding not to run away. I’ve seen pictures of 100 year old men, blind people, and folks in wheelchairs at these protests. If they can do it then an able bodied middle aged woman can too. She’s choosing not to because she’s afraid and that is the definition of cowardice whether you like it or not.
You sound naive. She studies dictators and she grew up in a neighbourhood of holocaust survivors. Teachers and their students are already being taken by ICE and it may become harder for targeted groups to find safety. This is not a question of “standing in a crowd”.
I know what the situation is. Run away then if that’s your plan, see how that works out for everybody else. But then, if you’re the kind of person who would run then you never cared much for them to be begin with, or at least your care didn’t translate into meaningful action on their behalf which is the same thing from a functional perspective.
Lol she’s an academic who has undoubtedly contributed to the body of historical knowledge on the this topic and has written this article which will reach tens of thousands of people, but you’re calling her a coward who won’t help fight fascism… What have you done, exactly?
You’re right, I should move to Canada and tell you guys how to do stuff that I’m too afraid to do myself. That’s the most helpful thing that I could do.
What an armchair thing to say
I don’t think that’s true at all but even if it were, sitting in an armchair in America is more helpful than sitting in an armchair in Canada which is what this lady is doing.
It’s quite a silly thing to get all high and mighty about. You don’t have that person’s life or thoughts/feelings.
I don’t need to know anything about this person to know that leaving is the cowards choice. She’s telling everyone else who can’t leave that they aren’t as important and they have to sort this out without her. Don’t try to spin that as some sort of noble act. We win together or we lose apart. I don’t want to hear any lectures on history or morailty from people who would rather save themselves than help their fellow citizens.
You feeling personally attacked here isn’t the person’s fault, who, btw, I am not saying is doing something noble. Just pointing out how weird it is that you’re acting this way about it.
You started this conversation by saying that I’m making armchair judgements about this person. If you understand how serious the situation is and you agree with what I’ve said about what our response should be then you should be annoyed with her for running away while preaching about the danger we’re in too. If my house is on fire don’t lecture me from a safe distance about how to spot the smoke earlier, grab a fucking bucket.
It didn’t sound high and mighty to me. She left a position of influence and (some small amount) of power just when shit is starting to get real. Fair weather patriot. Best of luck in Toronto. I’ll stay here with the hundreds of millions for whom leaving isn’t a viable option.
Uh ok
As if uprooting your entire life and moving doesn’t take any form of bravery.
You can dress it up in whatever way you choose but leaving is running away and that’s explicitly the opposite of bravery.
My sentiments exactly.
Not sure where your getting that 70 million number, but according to Wikipedia it was some 5 million.
Not to criticize, but I think it’s important not to spread inaccuracies and over inflate turnout numbers like a certain someone likes to do.
Another takeaway from that article: 7 of the top 10 were during Trump’s presidency.
dang. what happened to the 11 million estimate i read about yesterday?
The brown shirts have the keys to the kingdom, and so there’s no easy way to get rid of them. By my count they’ve already won, and will be able to do a depressing amount of damage before anyone could hope to stop them. If you’re a vulnerable group who has the opportunity to leave and isn’t ready to die fighting, leaving is the safest bet.
I mean that’s certainly fair, but with the vast majority of America either supporting the fascists or dragging its feet (cue “we can’t give them an excuse to do a fascism!!!”) “fuck this shit I’m outta here” is, honestly, pretty valid.
That sounds cool if your objective is to collect likes on social media. However, her objective is to save herself and her family from what’s coming. As “an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe,” she knows very well what it is. Only an ignorant and arrogant prick could say what you said.
“The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.”
That is iam14andthisisdeep material.
If all the good guys leave then you lose your country though
What if everyone just left Poland during ww2? There wouldn’t be a Poland today
Nah, the Polish resistance was slaughtered by the Soviets anyways:
Wikipedia
Poland remained occupied for 45 years after WW2 and was forcibly “shifted” to the West causing millions of Polish people to be deported from their homes in the East.
The best decision any Pole could have made for themselves, their family and even their country was to flee. You won’t do anything for Poland if you die as a slave in Siberia.
The Nazis did eventually lose, but look what it took to do it. Millions of people died on both sides. The best defense is to not allow them any power, but they already control the most powerful military in the history of the world.
At this point, leaving is a credible option, if you have it. Unfortunately, unless you are wealthy, have a large business, or are incredibly intelligent in a field they want, most of us won’t be welcome any where else.
But going peacefully on the streets is only successful if the government you want to send a message to is listening, i.e. if it either cares for their citizens or is in any way rational.
I hope I’m wrong here, but I can’t see anything changing for the better in your country. It currently looks like 70 million people trying to talk through a knife fight.
Eh, Trump’s stupid enough to openly oppose peaceful protest. And Americans seem to have a reaaaally short fuse when someone physically spits them in the face.
Soon, they won’t be so peaceful.
I had this hope too, but he already went light-years too far and all I read is “soon …”.
I’m generally against violence, but I really hope you guys do something over there…
From the numbers that I have seen spread through social media, they were saying 12.1 million people showed up for the No King protest.
Are you a professor in the field? No? Then fuck the fuck off.
Your usage of “70 million” is a cope just like her “checks and balances”. There was nowhere near that amount of people. Not even 10 million. The protests were largely cancelled because of the political assassination.
I looked for photos of protests and the ones I saw did not have anywhere near these amounts of people. A few hundred to a couple thousand at any one city. America is very okay with fascism.
You’re correct that 70 million is a large overstatement, but wrong about the rest
https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-kings-biggest-protest-u-172552711.html
https://www.npr.org/2025/06/15/nx-s1-5433765/3-takeaways-from-the-military-parade-and-no-kings-protests-on-trumps-birthday
https://www.wcvb.com/article/more-than-1-million-descend-on-boston-common-for-pride-and-no-kings-rallies/65065335
Bullshit. Only Minnesota cancelled protests during the manhunt for the conservative political assassin and tens of thousands showed up in the Minnesota capital anyway. And in other Minnesota cities and villages as well. Estimates range from 25,000 to 80,000 depending on the source. And it had no effect at all on anywhere else in the country. In Salt Lake City Utah an innocent protestor was killed by security shooting at a different man who they say had grabbed a gun and headed towards protesters and still 10,000 people marched there, in one of the most Republican states in the Union.
Seventy million is probably an exaggeration but your numbers are contradicted with thousands of news pictures taken from marches big and small across the country. And many more didn’t even make the news, like the one at the VA Center in West Los Angeles where I saw men waving a huge California flag and a banner saying SEMPER FI TO THE CONSTITUTION! DUMP TRUMP! as all the cars across 6 lanes of traffic honked in support.
And for clarification, the Minnesota protests weren’t cancelled. The governor merely told people to stay home while the police searched for the assassin, but they showed up at the Capitol anyway. Some of the government officials cancelled, but there were still some who showed up and spoke anyway, because Minnesota doesn’t let MAGA terrorists dictate what they do.