It’s not a complex argument. Israel is an apartheid, Jews only state, set up on land stolen from its indigenous people. Nothing equivocal about it. And they have been terrorizing, murdering, torturing, starving, imprisoning and humiliating them ever since. And there is a huge extremely well funded lobby in the US ensuring that things like what just happened, with Biden pledging 100 billion dollars of taxpayer money to Israel to keep doing what they are doing, which is genocide, keep happening.
Zero equivalence, the basic concept of Israel is pure, 100% apartheid. Don’t you dare say “six of one, half a dozen of the other,” not close at all, not even in the same universe!
They were so good at stealing that they gave the original owners financial compensation for the land and then stole it right under their noses… even took pictures of it those crooks… https://imgur.io/5fYx5Ud
Palestina is not only “state” that was there before thou.
It’s piece of land that changes ownership every few hundred years if not decades.
So it’s not really valid to say what was before because then somone can say even before that it was different. Then it will keep on going until beginning of history and both Palestinians and Israeli would have to leave.
As opposite if we say let’s look only certain time back then we might end up going closer to present in same manner.
IMHO this conflict has to be solved with todays borders (Not adding more land no IzraelI or Palestina).
Its not stolen land, it was given to them and sold to them and in addition they fought a completely legal war against people who wanted to annihilate them and won the land. They were willing to share, but the arabs in their war against them made it clear that not only wouldn’t they share, but they would do everything they can to eradicate them from the land, like the peace loving, non apartheid, democratic valued nation they are. These points are not relevant today because both peoples are in the land and there must be a solution to find peace without either of them just dissapearing. They have no choice but to share it or some other country offer safe haven for refugees, as so far none have, not of the arab countries or the west, not unilaterally and collectively. Only israel allows them to stay in israel, even after all the wars and all the terrorist attacks and all the government who pledge to annihilate israelis. If you want to discuss funding, talk about all the millions and billions given to the palestianians from foreign aid, yet they cannot even feed their own people. Talk about the millions of dollars of funding from Iran and other terror supporting states that is given to support the continuation of the attacks against israel. If someone cares to prove me wrong, I’m waiting… Every person hsa the right to defend themselves and taking land is a part of that. If someone is shooting at you from a hill, you have the right to take that hill to defend yourself from that attack and any future ones. That’s exactly what happened all over Israel in many disputed areas. If you want to talk about settlments you can talk about settlements, but saying that the whole land of Israel is stolen is simply untrue.
I would like to point out that West offered to take refugee to the middle east but instead millions of economic migrants came and overloaded western social benefit systems.
It’s not easy to take more and feed them as well.
Firstly, you can prove it yourself by checking the (friendly) photos shared between Israel and Palestine at the beginning.
Secondly, don’t believe me, just have a look at the political maps of the area, especially how Israel expanded over Palestine territories, every years since 1970. It helps having a merciless army like Israel.
I fucking hate that argument. It’s the same kind of mentality that says there is a 50% change of raining tomorrow, because either it rains, or it doesn’t.
Etuomaala is correct. Both sides pick shitty leadership. Both sides are constantly fucking with the other side in a deadly game. However, one side is grossly overpowered relative to the other and is constantly stealing land while committing apartheid.
Yeah, they’re both assholes. Just one’s a shitload stronger and never ever stops fucking with the little guy.
The median age of Palestine is 18. More than half of the people living in Palestine didn’t vote for Hamas, and it isn’t like this jihadist group will allow fair elections as they consolidate power. And even then, Israel isn’t allowing an avenue of diplomatic relations when they control essentials like water, keep taking land from them, killing journalists and diplomatic leaders, and bombing schools and hospitals (Israel has a well documented history of bombing Palestinian schools and hospitals).
The only way diplomacy will work is if Israel gives major concessions and they never will. Israel is creating the situation where extremists will rise and come into power. We saw this many times with America and Al Quaeda, Isis, taliban.
Let me ask the questions: Is Palestine its own state? If so, then Israel shouldn’t have control to all of these resources like power and water. If so, then they should actually autonomous. If so, why does Israel keep taking land, killing them?
Is Palestine part of the state of Israel? Then why do they do this to their own people? Because they “elected” Hamas? Then why does Israel put them in a condition to allow extremists to form? Imagine you are given a choice to die of starvation, dehydration, a bullet or rocket. That radicalizes people and gives them the ignition to take on arms.
And keep in mind I am not condoning Hamas. They are a jihadist terrorist group who are also harming the Palestian people. If they cared about Palestine, they would not have done the Oct 7th attack because they’d know Israel would retaliate 100 fold. Hamas are pieces of shit. Israel is creating the conditions that don’t allow diplomatic way forward, and allow the rise of extremist groups.
Don’t both sides this. Don’t make excuses for Israel’s genocide. Israel is the one with the power here. They control Gaza completely and have the monopoly of the violence.
I am not making excuses for Israel's genocide.
You're right.
Obviously, Israel is more evil and Israel has more control over this situation.
But they're both evil.
All I'm saying is that it is stupid to support the least evil side.
Fuck them both, really.
The situation will not be resolved until leadership on *both sides* changes.
So, yeah, if you don't mind, I am going to"both sides" this.
You are making excuses because you have vacuumed out all the nuance to this. You are ignoring the third party in this situation which are the Palestinians, the victims in all this. You say Israel is more evil, and that Israel has more power here, and you still relinquish their control and influence of this situation. You are effectively saying, “hey, as long as both sides don’t change leaders keep doing what you are doing!” This can’t be said and done when Israel is actively committing a genocide.
I’ve shown you already how easy it is to condemn both sides but hold enough poise and nuance to understand supporting the Palestinians has nothing to do with supporting Hamas. I’ve explained the reasons why this situation has occurred. Let me emphasize again:
A genocide is occurring in Palestine. A genocide is occurring in Palestine.* Once again for those in the back, a genocide is occurring in Palestine. A genocide purported by Israel, a genocide in which they have all control and power in stopping.
You make a lot of assumptions about my position. You don’t seem to care what I think. I ask you questions. You haven’t asked me any. Overall, you are not very interesting to talk to.
Fuck peace with Hamas. They need to be eradicated. We see what happened in Afghanistan and the Taliban. They would continue oppressing the Palestinians and hoard resources and other crap. I understand the sentiment as well, of wanting to make sure you don’t share a space or “border” with a terrorist organization.
What needs to be done is Israel needs to create the conditions where a diplomatic solution can be achieved. This means they need to stop assassinating journalists and diplomatic delegates. They must also make more concessions and promises (that can be made through legislation) that makes sure their power, water, electricity, internet and other basic necessities won’t ever be cut off. The internet one is a huge one because we need to make sure the Palestinians have a way to record and document things from their perspectives. We can see right now what cutting their internet has done. A lot of misinformation and propaganda.
Israel will need to make even more concessions like actually giving land back and minority protection. Stop using them as cheap labor (which is eerily similar to how Americans use immigrants). Help provide aid and funds to build schools and hospitals. You know how big this last one would be? The perspective towards Israel from the world, let alone Palestine, would be huge and open so many bridges of diplomacy.
Israel needs to stop taking away the basic things needed to achieve all this. They need to stop murdering innocent people. If I lost my home, my wife, and if I especially lost my son to an errant attack from Israel I of course would be pissed. Imagine now I am hungry, thirsty, living on the streets, sick. I understand why some Palestinians would take up arms, because at that point I would be starring at the end of my barrel. The deaths of innocents need to stop.
By doing what I stated. You remove the conditions for extremism to exist to make Hamas as unfavorable as possible. Then Israel can help host an election making it as fair as possible so a proper representative of their people can be elected. If there is enough favorability, good will, and no hopelessness, then hopefully Palestine will elect a better representative. This may take generations though.
If there is no reason to follow and support Hamas, then there is no reason for it to exist.
Maaaan fuck this shit. I hate centrists so much. Is there an EnlightenedCentrist community on lemmy yet?
You say you look at both sides to “stay utmost rational” when it is so fucking easy to clearly condemn the actions of Hamas, a terrorist jihadist group, and see how Israel keeps promulgating the conditions for extremists groups to crop up, oh and they are also committing a genocide. Like if you care about innocent people dying, like these festival people, OR MAYBE kids, then you’d want Israel to stop this shit. Your centrist attitude is the logic that will get more people killed. You take a more passive approach and just raise your hands while Israel is mowing down people saying "I can’t see the difference between the two! They are the same! So what is best is I take no action and take no stance while I sit on this iron wall and watch all of this happen.
Before I get all the regular responses, I am just going to copy and paste my other comment. I won’t be bothering responding to you if you don’t read it and make a comment I already address.
The median age of Palestine is 18. More than half of the people living in Palestine didn’t vote for Hamas, and it isn’t like this jihadist group will allow fair elections as they consolidate power. And even then, Israel isn’t allowing an avenue of diplomatic relations when they control essentials like water, keep taking land from them, killing journalists and diplomatic leaders, and bombing schools and hospitals (Israel has a well documented history of bombing Palestinian schools and hospitals).
The only way diplomacy will work is if Israel gives major concessions and they never will. Israel is creating the situation where extremists will rise and come into power. We saw this many times with America and Al Quaeda, Isis, taliban.
Let me ask the questions: Is Palestine its own state? If so, then Israel shouldn’t have control to all of these resources like power and water. If so, then they should actually autonomous. If so, why does Israel keep taking land, killing them?
Is Palestine part of the state of Israel? Then why do they do this to their own people? Because they “elected” Hamas? Then why does Israel put them in a condition to allow extremists to form? Imagine you are given a choice to die of starvation, dehydration, a bullet or rocket. That radicalizes people and gives them the ignition to take on arms.
And keep in mind I am not condoning Hamas. They are a jihadist terrorist group who are also harming the Palestian people. If they cared about Palestine, they would not have done the Oct 7th attack because they’d know Israel would retaliate 100 fold. Hamas are pieces of shit. Israel is creating the conditions that don’t allow diplomatic way forward, and allow the rise of extremist groups.
The people in charge of both sides are evil. Picking sides in this fight is like picking sides in fucking Game of Thrones.It’s not a complex argument. Israel is an apartheid, Jews only state, set up on land stolen from its indigenous people. Nothing equivocal about it. And they have been terrorizing, murdering, torturing, starving, imprisoning and humiliating them ever since. And there is a huge extremely well funded lobby in the US ensuring that things like what just happened, with Biden pledging 100 billion dollars of taxpayer money to Israel to keep doing what they are doing, which is genocide, keep happening.
Zero equivalence, the basic concept of Israel is pure, 100% apartheid. Don’t you dare say “six of one, half a dozen of the other,” not close at all, not even in the same universe!
And Hamas is a peaceful group of protestors that totally didn’t invade Israel with the sole purpose of slaughtering as many civilians as possible.
Both sides suck in this conflict, and the civilians suffer for it.
Hamas is shit. But don’t forget that all the other more peaceful options have been amputated by Israel during all these years.
What do you think should happen to the state of Israel?
deleted by creator
Well yeah, the United States did the same to native Americans, condemning Israel would be too much on the nose even for them.
They were so good at stealing that they gave the original owners financial compensation for the land and then stole it right under their noses… even took pictures of it those crooks… https://imgur.io/5fYx5Ud
Palestina is not only “state” that was there before thou. It’s piece of land that changes ownership every few hundred years if not decades.
So it’s not really valid to say what was before because then somone can say even before that it was different. Then it will keep on going until beginning of history and both Palestinians and Israeli would have to leave. As opposite if we say let’s look only certain time back then we might end up going closer to present in same manner.
IMHO this conflict has to be solved with todays borders (Not adding more land no IzraelI or Palestina).
Its not stolen land, it was given to them and sold to them and in addition they fought a completely legal war against people who wanted to annihilate them and won the land. They were willing to share, but the arabs in their war against them made it clear that not only wouldn’t they share, but they would do everything they can to eradicate them from the land, like the peace loving, non apartheid, democratic valued nation they are. These points are not relevant today because both peoples are in the land and there must be a solution to find peace without either of them just dissapearing. They have no choice but to share it or some other country offer safe haven for refugees, as so far none have, not of the arab countries or the west, not unilaterally and collectively. Only israel allows them to stay in israel, even after all the wars and all the terrorist attacks and all the government who pledge to annihilate israelis. If you want to discuss funding, talk about all the millions and billions given to the palestianians from foreign aid, yet they cannot even feed their own people. Talk about the millions of dollars of funding from Iran and other terror supporting states that is given to support the continuation of the attacks against israel. If someone cares to prove me wrong, I’m waiting… Every person hsa the right to defend themselves and taking land is a part of that. If someone is shooting at you from a hill, you have the right to take that hill to defend yourself from that attack and any future ones. That’s exactly what happened all over Israel in many disputed areas. If you want to talk about settlments you can talk about settlements, but saying that the whole land of Israel is stolen is simply untrue.
I would like to point out that West offered to take refugee to the middle east but instead millions of economic migrants came and overloaded western social benefit systems. It’s not easy to take more and feed them as well.
Not a single word of what you said is true.
Firstly, you can prove it yourself by checking the (friendly) photos shared between Israel and Palestine at the beginning.
Secondly, don’t believe me, just have a look at the political maps of the area, especially how Israel expanded over Palestine territories, every years since 1970. It helps having a merciless army like Israel.
deleted by creator
Idk man, I think hot pie should have been king.
I fucking hate that argument. It’s the same kind of mentality that says there is a 50% change of raining tomorrow, because either it rains, or it doesn’t.
It’s the #AllLivesMatter take for the middle east
This is a continuation of the crusades to 75% of those involved. I’m surprised nobody is framing it universally like that.
Huh, well put. I believe in the same thing, but never been able to summarize quickly. Thanks I’m gonna exain it like this now on.
it seems you can’t be bothered with any thing more than 2 lines of stereotypical rhetoric.
Talk about not bothering.
Etuomaala is correct. Both sides pick shitty leadership. Both sides are constantly fucking with the other side in a deadly game. However, one side is grossly overpowered relative to the other and is constantly stealing land while committing apartheid.
Yeah, they’re both assholes. Just one’s a shitload stronger and never ever stops fucking with the little guy.
The median age of Palestine is 18. More than half of the people living in Palestine didn’t vote for Hamas, and it isn’t like this jihadist group will allow fair elections as they consolidate power. And even then, Israel isn’t allowing an avenue of diplomatic relations when they control essentials like water, keep taking land from them, killing journalists and diplomatic leaders, and bombing schools and hospitals (Israel has a well documented history of bombing Palestinian schools and hospitals).
The only way diplomacy will work is if Israel gives major concessions and they never will. Israel is creating the situation where extremists will rise and come into power. We saw this many times with America and Al Quaeda, Isis, taliban.
Let me ask the questions: Is Palestine its own state? If so, then Israel shouldn’t have control to all of these resources like power and water. If so, then they should actually autonomous. If so, why does Israel keep taking land, killing them?
Is Palestine part of the state of Israel? Then why do they do this to their own people? Because they “elected” Hamas? Then why does Israel put them in a condition to allow extremists to form? Imagine you are given a choice to die of starvation, dehydration, a bullet or rocket. That radicalizes people and gives them the ignition to take on arms.
And keep in mind I am not condoning Hamas. They are a jihadist terrorist group who are also harming the Palestian people. If they cared about Palestine, they would not have done the Oct 7th attack because they’d know Israel would retaliate 100 fold. Hamas are pieces of shit. Israel is creating the conditions that don’t allow diplomatic way forward, and allow the rise of extremist groups.
Don’t both sides this. Don’t make excuses for Israel’s genocide. Israel is the one with the power here. They control Gaza completely and have the monopoly of the violence.
I am not making excuses for Israel's genocide. You're right. Obviously, Israel is more evil and Israel has more control over this situation. But they're both evil. All I'm saying is that it is stupid to support the least evil side. Fuck them both, really. The situation will not be resolved until leadership on *both sides* changes. So, yeah, if you don't mind, I am going to "both sides" this.You are making excuses because you have vacuumed out all the nuance to this. You are ignoring the third party in this situation which are the Palestinians, the victims in all this. You say Israel is more evil, and that Israel has more power here, and you still relinquish their control and influence of this situation. You are effectively saying, “hey, as long as both sides don’t change leaders keep doing what you are doing!” This can’t be said and done when Israel is actively committing a genocide.
I’ve shown you already how easy it is to condemn both sides but hold enough poise and nuance to understand supporting the Palestinians has nothing to do with supporting Hamas. I’ve explained the reasons why this situation has occurred. Let me emphasize again:
A genocide is occurring in Palestine. A genocide is occurring in Palestine.* Once again for those in the back, a genocide is occurring in Palestine. A genocide purported by Israel, a genocide in which they have all control and power in stopping.
You make a lot of assumptions about my position. You don’t seem to care what I think. I ask you questions. You haven’t asked me any. Overall, you are not very interesting to talk to.
Then how should they make peace with Hamas?
Fuck peace with Hamas. They need to be eradicated. We see what happened in Afghanistan and the Taliban. They would continue oppressing the Palestinians and hoard resources and other crap. I understand the sentiment as well, of wanting to make sure you don’t share a space or “border” with a terrorist organization.
What needs to be done is Israel needs to create the conditions where a diplomatic solution can be achieved. This means they need to stop assassinating journalists and diplomatic delegates. They must also make more concessions and promises (that can be made through legislation) that makes sure their power, water, electricity, internet and other basic necessities won’t ever be cut off. The internet one is a huge one because we need to make sure the Palestinians have a way to record and document things from their perspectives. We can see right now what cutting their internet has done. A lot of misinformation and propaganda.
Israel will need to make even more concessions like actually giving land back and minority protection. Stop using them as cheap labor (which is eerily similar to how Americans use immigrants). Help provide aid and funds to build schools and hospitals. You know how big this last one would be? The perspective towards Israel from the world, let alone Palestine, would be huge and open so many bridges of diplomacy.
Israel needs to stop taking away the basic things needed to achieve all this. They need to stop murdering innocent people. If I lost my home, my wife, and if I especially lost my son to an errant attack from Israel I of course would be pissed. Imagine now I am hungry, thirsty, living on the streets, sick. I understand why some Palestinians would take up arms, because at that point I would be starring at the end of my barrel. The deaths of innocents need to stop.
How does one eradicate Hamas?
By doing what I stated. You remove the conditions for extremism to exist to make Hamas as unfavorable as possible. Then Israel can help host an election making it as fair as possible so a proper representative of their people can be elected. If there is enough favorability, good will, and no hopelessness, then hopefully Palestine will elect a better representative. This may take generations though.
If there is no reason to follow and support Hamas, then there is no reason for it to exist.
Well, then we are in agreement. You just don’t seem to like how I express the same ideas you have lol.
Kinda can’t outsee them festival people either. Sorry I’m gonna look at both sides with utmost try to stay rational .
Maaaan fuck this shit. I hate centrists so much. Is there an EnlightenedCentrist community on lemmy yet?
You say you look at both sides to “stay utmost rational” when it is so fucking easy to clearly condemn the actions of Hamas, a terrorist jihadist group, and see how Israel keeps promulgating the conditions for extremists groups to crop up, oh and they are also committing a genocide. Like if you care about innocent people dying, like these festival people, OR MAYBE kids, then you’d want Israel to stop this shit. Your centrist attitude is the logic that will get more people killed. You take a more passive approach and just raise your hands while Israel is mowing down people saying "I can’t see the difference between the two! They are the same! So what is best is I take no action and take no stance while I sit on this iron wall and watch all of this happen.
Before I get all the regular responses, I am just going to copy and paste my other comment. I won’t be bothering responding to you if you don’t read it and make a comment I already address.
The author is an expert, are you?
People do it anyway, though, don't they...