• Andy
    link
    fedilink
    English
    618 months ago

    This is bizarre and macabre.

    First, I want to say that I don’t care if they find tunnels in the hospital or not. Cutting patients off of electricity and medicine is not justified even if they find the massive bad-guy secret base that they say is underneath the hospital.

    But on top of that, if the tunnels aren’t there… what then? Do we get an apology? Do they bring back the patients?

    I’m shocked that they’re touring journalists and showing off rifles and BOOKS as evidence that this was a legitimate military target.

    I want a ceasefire. I want the hostages back. And I want Gaza to have the freedom to select leadership that represents them to engage in a peace process that gives them the right of movement, education, food, and safety.

      • Andy
        link
        fedilink
        English
        218 months ago

        I really want to reiterate: it’s a waste of time to debate.

        We all already know that Hamas commits war crimes, and we also already know that none of these war crimes justify Israeli crimes against humanity. Debating whether Hamas used a given hospital to store a specific gun is like debating whether I owe you $100 or $200 for dinner last week when I already owe you $50,000. Who cares’s what the bill was last week? It’s a distraction.

        Here’s where we must insist on putting our attention: generations of occupation and displacement have been a disaster for Palestinians and liberal Israelis. It has only been a success for Jewish supremacists, and those people have been pulling the wool over American liberals for far, far, far too long. We need to get out of debates over any given hospital and demand new leadership in Israel that commits to ending the Israeli apartheid and expanding civil rights to the people living in the Palestinian territories illegally annexed by Israel.

          • @naught@sh.itjust.works
            cake
            link
            fedilink
            English
            -118 months ago

            I… didn’t say that. I don’t doubt they did it, but you didn’t post a source and are making claims based on what, exactly? The BBC noted a cut in the video and that the scene could have been rearranged. Idk why you’re so up in arms.

            • @palal@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              88 months ago

              The BBC compared the original video to the one they correspondent took and noticed that the guns had been shuffled and a new gun had been added to the pile.

              If I didn’t link the full video, that’s my bad. I’m not sure how to link BBC broadcasts.

              • @naught@sh.itjust.works
                cake
                link
                fedilink
                English
                -58 months ago

                Sure but to say they outright accused Israel of planting them is wrong. Good information is already hard enough to find. They are still pussyfooting around it and took a fairly neutral and evidence based view. That is all I’m saying

                • @palal@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  18 months ago

                  A new gun was placed in the pile before it was shown to journalists.

                  How, exactly, do you define “planting” if that’s not it?

                  • Zorque
                    link
                    fedilink
                    58 months ago

                    Clearly they didn’t till the soil first. Can it really be planting?

                  • @naught@sh.itjust.works
                    cake
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    38 months ago

                    Why can’t that be an additional gun they found? Maybe it was rearranged for camera? The BBC segment did not make any hard claims just that the evidence was suspect. You can draw your own conclusions but you can’t say the BBC outright made this claim. Don’t trust the IDF blindly, but I have to approach reporting on the conflict this way to stay sane. Too many people spewing nonsense, misinformation, and propaganda (not u specifically).

      • @5BC2E7@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        -118 months ago

        The same bbc that reported about hamas tunnels years ago but is now referring to them as unconfirmed reports from israel?

        • @palal@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          58 months ago

          We know that there were tunnels and bunkers under al-Shifa. After all, the IDF built them. Whether they’re still in use today is very questionable: if you were Hamas, would you center your operation around something that your enemy knows every detail of?

          • @5BC2E7@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            -98 months ago

            Well the bbc knew about hamas tunels in gaza but they don’t seem to be able to acknowledge it at present. You might be confusing facts. israel built the hospital. Hamas built the tunnels in gaza. Those are not even similar.

            It’s hard to say how I would behave if my worldview was tainted by beliefs that make someone think all jews should be exterminated.

            • @palal@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              118 months ago

              Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath al-Shifa hospital – which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2.

              As reported on by the pro-Israel publication The Tablet.

    • Annoyed_🦀 🏅A
      link
      English
      138 months ago

      They’ve just forcing the evacuation on everyone there. If the hospital is then demolished, we all know they didn’t find the tunnel.

      My hope is they bring back the hostage but so far there’s absolutely no solid proof that the hospital currently hold any amount of hostage, or at least already not there.

      • Andy
        link
        fedilink
        English
        58 months ago

        The only way we’re getting the hostages back is through negotiation. Military hostage recovery is just a euphemism for body recovery.

        • @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          98 months ago

          IDF conveniently finds bodies of dead hostages they surely didn’t plant there themselves.

          Tunnels or gtfo.

          • @DoomBot5@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            -98 months ago

            This response is so pathetic. Nobody gives a shit what you want. Apparently dead hostages isn’t good enough for you. Shows just how pathetic a piece of scum you are.

            • @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              28 months ago

              Unless it was the body cam of the soldier who found them with the entire unedited video segment of them getting to that location, it’s planted and bullshit. Because everything else the IDF has shown so far has been fake planted bullshit.

        • @palal@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          78 months ago

          Indiscriminate bombing leads to dead hostages. The Hannibal Directive at work.

    • @5BC2E7@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      -38 months ago

      Since US already agreed that hamas operated in the hospital and countries know it would not be a violation of international law in that case they only need to show evidence to gain public approval.

      • Andy
        link
        fedilink
        English
        48 months ago

        I thoroughly disagree with the idea that Israel is cleared of wrongdoing if Hamas operated in the hospital.

        Israel has been in flagrant violation of international law for YEARS. Under international law, they’re obligated to provide healthcare and food to people living under occupation. Under international law, apartheid is illegal. Under international law, you’re not allowed to create conditions intended to make life unlivable for a targeted ethnic group. That’s one of the acts designated as genocide.

        This is why I keep saying that the discussion over this single hospital is a distraction. We need to keep our focus on the larger picture: millions of people across Israel-Palestine are denied basic rights: Palestinians in Gaza, Palestinians in the West Bank, Palestinians citizens of Israel, Israeli leftists, Mizrahi and Sphardaic Israeli Jews, Bedouins, immigrant workers… and that won’t end until we stop enabling it.

        • @5BC2E7@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          -6
          edit-2
          8 months ago

          again you might disagree and repeat hamas propaganda points but international law says otherwise. it’s not a debate in that context. if you disagree you are basically saying that you have more moral clarity than the red cross. do you really think you have more moral clarity than them?

          • Andy
            link
            fedilink
            English
            18 months ago

            Was this intended to respond to another comment? I don’t see how this connects to what I just said.

            • @5BC2E7@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              -48 months ago

              I guess you are not ready to condemn the Red Cross so you feign confusion instead of acknowledging the point.