Israeli soldiers raiding a hospital in northern Gaza desecrated the bodies of deceased patients with bulldozers, let a military dog maul a man in a wheelchair, and shot multiple doctors even after vetting them, according to allegations by staffers and patients at Kamal Adwan hospital, where Israeli forces spent eight days last week.
The comparison with the Nazis doesn’t help anything and just makes the discussion a quagmire of historical misanalogies.There are dozens of other cruel and horrible examples from history to compare with, pick another one that does not specifically trigger Jewish sensibilities.
Hell, if you absolutely need to use Germany as an example, use what they did in WW1 in Belgium.
There are Jewish scholars and activists comparing contemporary treatment of Palestinians by Israel with nazism. Are they allowed to make comparisons that trigger Jewish sensibilities?
Finkelstein was born to parents who are both Jewish Holocaust survivors in New York City in 1953 (…) Finkelstein has called Israel the “Jewish supremacist state”, and views it as committing the crime of apartheid against the Palestinian people.[5] Through personal accounts in one of his books, he compares the plight of the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation with the horrors of the Nazis.[6]
Did I ban anyone from saying anything? Do what you will. FFS.
All I’m saying is that by picking that rhetorical terrain, you’re choosing to play the game on Israel’s terms and you open up the door to being accused of antisemitism and then you’re having that discussion. It’s a pointless distraction from what they are actually doing.
Any Government that prevents access to food, medicine and potable water to a population of their people they feel are undesirable, has racially coded check points, and white-only roads absolutely deserves to be compared to Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, or the Confederate states. That government also deserves to share the same fates as those other governments.
Never Again means Never Again without any qualifications.
Yes and yes, imho. The only humane way forward is an end to the killing on both sides and a diplomatic solution. Whether that’s a one, two or five state solution doesn’t matter to me, that’s up to the people negotiating.
That diplomacy and negotiation feels a very long way away at the moment though.
Not all Germans (probably not even most) supported the National Socialists, but when the ones that didn’t were too cowardly to fight them getting into power, they all get painted with the same brush in the end. Germany as a whole was making reparations for WW2, and the civilian population bore it’s own level of blame for letting that happen in their country.
Ah. Yeah, unfortunately the same is about to happen to the Gazans because of their choice to elect Hamas. There’s going to need to be a comprehensive process of Denazification there, as well as a Marshall Plan to rebuild the strip.
Equating all Jews with the monsters committing genocide is… What’s that word again? Oh, antisemitic, right. People simp for Israel so hard they become actual antisemites.
Removed. Antizionism and antisemitism are NOT the same thing. Being against the political policies of Israel is NOT the same as hating a people in general.
Just because you’re not intelligent enough to discern the clear difference between unsubstantiated hate against an ethnic group based on nothing bit their ethnicity and very real and justified hate against a genocidal, apartheid government hell bent on actually ethnically cleansing their neighbors and stealing their land doesn’t mean that others can’t tell the difference.
I’m sorry, you didn’t notice how a number of people with British accents or who are from America just go out and say KHAMAS. Like, are you kidding me? Do you say “KHELICOPTER”? Hamas’ name in English follows the Arabic tradition of ح (ḥā) sound being turned into the “h” letter in English and pronounced like a normal h, and yes, it’s normal to say “Khamas” if your mother tongue is modern Hebrew, but I think you aew still oblivious to the fact that Israeli propaganda wants to “other” Palestinians (by calling them “Arabs”, for example). In this case, it’s by deliberately mispronouncing the English name of “Hamas” (any person interested enough in a thing usually learns to pronounce it correctly, lots of people in the UN said “Hamas” regardless of their mother tongue when they spoke proper English) but Israeli officials want to degrade Hamas, make Hamas sound bad through and through, and often when you hear KHAMAS, you also hear “KHAMAS ISIS” even though no self respecting expert would make such a comparison. But that all starts to look terrible when you realize that Hamas in Israel means all of the Gazan government. The IDF has bombed governmental buildings, stopped all social work, and obstructed police that were trying to rescue people from under the rubble because those police are “KHAMAS”. Any social worker or nurse at a public hospital is KHAMAS. etc.
So when I say KHAMAS, please don’t think of me mocking a Jewish Israeli speaking on the news about the atrocity their witnessed on October 7th. Instead, think of [this man who’s quite a piece of work] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPnI6jD-k8I)
Yes. People don’t like the extremist and murderous policies of that state under Netanyahu. While antisemitism is still a problem worldwide, objecting to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is not in itself antisemitism. The accusation of antisemitism has been used politically to deflect criticism of these policies.
And of course such criticism doesn’t mean people like Hamas either. That’s another accusation that has been trotted out to deflect criticism.
I don’t like Netanyahu’s extremist policies either.
Referring to “Zionists” as ‘Nazis’ is nevertheless antisemitic. Zionism is simply the belief in the right of self-determination of the Jewish people to a state of Israel in their historic homeland. It was created through international law by partition, just as many others were, but is unique in having its right to exist questioned.
If you don’t like the people in charge, that’s fine. That’s not anti-Zionist. Claiming that Israel has no right to exist, that it should be destroyed and the Jews either dispersed or killed (by one means or another; this is also the inevitable outcome of a one-state ‘solution’), is antisemitic.
Arguing that there’s only one definition of Zionism or that yours is the correct one is disingenuous at best and antisemitic at worst. I personally prefer to just believe you’re uninformed given your inability to cite a source that supports your claims.
Additionally, Israel is by no means unique in having its right to exist questioned. I’m not sure where that particular bullshit talking point came from but it’s sort of racist? Ukraine, for example, is waging a war for its right to exist in the face of Putin trying to restore the USSR. Georgia too. Maduro recently said Venezuela should just conquer Guyana. Taiwan has been under threat from mainland China for its entire existence, itself having a pretty similar story to Israel where an outside group moved in (Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang), who proceeded to control the indigenous population (who had already been through many rounds of occupation).
Finally, you’re making a huge leap when you claim that people calling out the self-proclaimed Zionists controlling the government of Israel for committing war crimes equates to calling for the death of all Israelis and all Jewish peoples. Anyone can criticize the Israeli government, doing so is neither antisemitic nor is it wishing death on anyone.
Do you think your definition of Zionism matches what others believe about Zionism? Do you think your definition is the one applied today? Seems like most Zionists policies are racist towards Palestinians.
I mean even the definition they gave is problematic. Palestine is a place full of ethnic and religious diversity. Privileging one part of the population necessitates the disenfranchisement of others. That’s what all expressions of Zionism entail.
I’d like to offer some corrections and clarifications.
First, you are absolutely 100% right that Zionism is much bigger than just “Let’s go genocide”. The usage of Zionism today seems very muddied and strange, especially by non-Jews.
Zionism is actually even more expansive than you describe here though: it’s simply the belief in the right of the Jewish people to a state. A lot of 19th century Zionists actually wanted to buy land in Africa to start a Jewish state to sidestep the thorny mess that is politics in the holy land. They lost out to Herzl in the first Zionist Congress though.
Secondarily, I completely agree that anti-zionism based on Jewish dispersal is exactly identical to Palestinian genocide, just reversed. There are one-state proposals that could work if the crazy religious nutjobs weren’t in power in Israel and Gaza, working hand in glove to maintain power by mutual terror.
I think when people that aren’t fully aware of the ideologies are hating on Zionism, what they’re actually against is Kahanism, they just don’t know the terminology.
That’s a good clarification. I wonder how often, when people endorse statements like that, they simply don’t understand that Zionism embraces a lot more than Israel’s far right wing or think through the implications. Sometimes, for sure, it’s a deliberate style of messaging from antisemites.
Israel is an ethno-state, people fighting on behalf of Israel want to eradicate Palestinian people. This doesn’t have anything to do with Jewish people in general. To conflate Israel with Jewish people is itself antisemitic.
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Early Israeli zionists tried a few times to ally with the Nazis.
there were no israeli zionists at the time, I’d say just zionists. please correct me if I’m wrong
They were Israelis after the war though, and they lived the rest of their lives as Israelis, so it make sense to refer to them as such.
And y’know they considered themselves Israeli before the state even re-existed.
Fun fact: even Zionists called it Palestine before they changed the name.
ok, I get your point. thank you
Zionism is the new Nazism.
Treat Zionists as you would Nazis.
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The comparison with the Nazis doesn’t help anything and just makes the discussion a quagmire of historical misanalogies.There are dozens of other cruel and horrible examples from history to compare with, pick another one that does not specifically trigger Jewish sensibilities.
Hell, if you absolutely need to use Germany as an example, use what they did in WW1 in Belgium.
There are Jewish scholars and activists comparing contemporary treatment of Palestinians by Israel with nazism. Are they allowed to make comparisons that trigger Jewish sensibilities?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein
Did I ban anyone from saying anything? Do what you will. FFS.
All I’m saying is that by picking that rhetorical terrain, you’re choosing to play the game on Israel’s terms and you open up the door to being accused of antisemitism and then you’re having that discussion. It’s a pointless distraction from what they are actually doing.
Any Government that prevents access to food, medicine and potable water to a population of their people they feel are undesirable, has racially coded check points, and white-only roads absolutely deserves to be compared to Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, or the Confederate states. That government also deserves to share the same fates as those other governments.
Never Again means Never Again without any qualifications.
I understand it hurts, but the ethno-state is the common dream of Hitler and Israel. Facts are facts.
Weird that open Jew-hatred like this is tolerated here
Hi, I’m a Jew. I also absolutely hate Netanyahu and the entire disgusting coalition of Likud, Tkuma, Otzma Yehudit and all their Kahanist allies.
It’s not anti-semitic to hate the government of the state of Israel, as much as they might like to pretend that the terms are synonymous.
Obviously criticism of the current Israeli government is 100% valid because they suck. And criticizing it is definitely not anti-semitic.
However, is calling for the destruction of Israel anti-semitic? Is calling for the destruction of all Muslim states Islamophobic?
Yes and yes, imho. The only humane way forward is an end to the killing on both sides and a diplomatic solution. Whether that’s a one, two or five state solution doesn’t matter to me, that’s up to the people negotiating.
That diplomacy and negotiation feels a very long way away at the moment though.
What does this have to do with his comment comparing Israel to Nazis and Netanyahu to Hitler?
Honest question: as the Nazis were an explicitly Christian group, does hating the Nazi ideology make you anti-Christian?
Not all Germans (probably not even most) supported the National Socialists, but when the ones that didn’t were too cowardly to fight them getting into power, they all get painted with the same brush in the end. Germany as a whole was making reparations for WW2, and the civilian population bore it’s own level of blame for letting that happen in their country.
Ah. Yeah, unfortunately the same is about to happen to the Gazans because of their choice to elect Hamas. There’s going to need to be a comprehensive process of Denazification there, as well as a Marshall Plan to rebuild the strip.
Netanyahu directly supported Hamas. He wants them in charge because it gives him cover for his genocidal/colonial policies.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
So you can see it there. And Israelis elected the extremist Netanyahu, which can colour people’s perception of them too.
You’re all over this thread defending Israel and now you’re equating Jewish people with the Israeli government. Bad faith arguing.
Equating all Jews with the monsters committing genocide is… What’s that word again? Oh, antisemitic, right. People simp for Israel so hard they become actual antisemites.
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Removed. Antizionism and antisemitism are NOT the same thing. Being against the political policies of Israel is NOT the same as hating a people in general.
This argument is bad faith. Or you’re just plain wrong. You can pick.
Just because you’re not intelligent enough to discern the clear difference between unsubstantiated hate against an ethnic group based on nothing bit their ethnicity and very real and justified hate against a genocidal, apartheid government hell bent on actually ethnically cleansing their neighbors and stealing their land doesn’t mean that others can’t tell the difference.
Criticism of Israel ≠ Jew hatred.
Unless you mean to say that, for example, every Jew in JVP is committing Jew Hatred on a daily basis.
why do you mock jews accent then?
Nope, just the people who use KHAMAS to differentiate themselves from the rest, it’s a signal.
who are the rest? what signal?
I’m sorry, you didn’t notice how a number of people with British accents or who are from America just go out and say KHAMAS. Like, are you kidding me? Do you say “KHELICOPTER”? Hamas’ name in English follows the Arabic tradition of ح (ḥā) sound being turned into the “h” letter in English and pronounced like a normal h, and yes, it’s normal to say “Khamas” if your mother tongue is modern Hebrew, but I think you aew still oblivious to the fact that Israeli propaganda wants to “other” Palestinians (by calling them “Arabs”, for example). In this case, it’s by deliberately mispronouncing the English name of “Hamas” (any person interested enough in a thing usually learns to pronounce it correctly, lots of people in the UN said “Hamas” regardless of their mother tongue when they spoke proper English) but Israeli officials want to degrade Hamas, make Hamas sound bad through and through, and often when you hear KHAMAS, you also hear “KHAMAS ISIS” even though no self respecting expert would make such a comparison. But that all starts to look terrible when you realize that Hamas in Israel means all of the Gazan government. The IDF has bombed governmental buildings, stopped all social work, and obstructed police that were trying to rescue people from under the rubble because those police are “KHAMAS”. Any social worker or nurse at a public hospital is KHAMAS. etc.
So when I say KHAMAS, please don’t think of me mocking a Jewish Israeli speaking on the news about the atrocity their witnessed on October 7th. Instead, think of [this man who’s quite a piece of work] (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LPnI6jD-k8I)
History is tolerated. And I’m talking about Israel no Jews. Maybe another few years back to school could help?
Israel, the Jewish state created after the Holocaust, and in which half of all Jews live, you mean?
Yes. People don’t like the extremist and murderous policies of that state under Netanyahu. While antisemitism is still a problem worldwide, objecting to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is not in itself antisemitism. The accusation of antisemitism has been used politically to deflect criticism of these policies.
And of course such criticism doesn’t mean people like Hamas either. That’s another accusation that has been trotted out to deflect criticism.
I don’t like Netanyahu’s extremist policies either.
Referring to “Zionists” as ‘Nazis’ is nevertheless antisemitic. Zionism is simply the belief in the right of self-determination of the Jewish people to a state of Israel in their historic homeland. It was created through international law by partition, just as many others were, but is unique in having its right to exist questioned.
If you don’t like the people in charge, that’s fine. That’s not anti-Zionist. Claiming that Israel has no right to exist, that it should be destroyed and the Jews either dispersed or killed (by one means or another; this is also the inevitable outcome of a one-state ‘solution’), is antisemitic.
Arguing that there’s only one definition of Zionism or that yours is the correct one is disingenuous at best and antisemitic at worst. I personally prefer to just believe you’re uninformed given your inability to cite a source that supports your claims.
Additionally, Israel is by no means unique in having its right to exist questioned. I’m not sure where that particular bullshit talking point came from but it’s sort of racist? Ukraine, for example, is waging a war for its right to exist in the face of Putin trying to restore the USSR. Georgia too. Maduro recently said Venezuela should just conquer Guyana. Taiwan has been under threat from mainland China for its entire existence, itself having a pretty similar story to Israel where an outside group moved in (Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang), who proceeded to control the indigenous population (who had already been through many rounds of occupation).
Finally, you’re making a huge leap when you claim that people calling out the self-proclaimed Zionists controlling the government of Israel for committing war crimes equates to calling for the death of all Israelis and all Jewish peoples. Anyone can criticize the Israeli government, doing so is neither antisemitic nor is it wishing death on anyone.
Do you think your definition of Zionism matches what others believe about Zionism? Do you think your definition is the one applied today? Seems like most Zionists policies are racist towards Palestinians.
I mean even the definition they gave is problematic. Palestine is a place full of ethnic and religious diversity. Privileging one part of the population necessitates the disenfranchisement of others. That’s what all expressions of Zionism entail.
I’d like to offer some corrections and clarifications.
First, you are absolutely 100% right that Zionism is much bigger than just “Let’s go genocide”. The usage of Zionism today seems very muddied and strange, especially by non-Jews.
Zionism is actually even more expansive than you describe here though: it’s simply the belief in the right of the Jewish people to a state. A lot of 19th century Zionists actually wanted to buy land in Africa to start a Jewish state to sidestep the thorny mess that is politics in the holy land. They lost out to Herzl in the first Zionist Congress though.
Secondarily, I completely agree that anti-zionism based on Jewish dispersal is exactly identical to Palestinian genocide, just reversed. There are one-state proposals that could work if the crazy religious nutjobs weren’t in power in Israel and Gaza, working hand in glove to maintain power by mutual terror.
I think when people that aren’t fully aware of the ideologies are hating on Zionism, what they’re actually against is Kahanism, they just don’t know the terminology.
That’s a good clarification. I wonder how often, when people endorse statements like that, they simply don’t understand that Zionism embraces a lot more than Israel’s far right wing or think through the implications. Sometimes, for sure, it’s a deliberate style of messaging from antisemites.
For 75 years of history, Zionism had been killing Palestinians, it doesn’t matter who is in government, seemingly.
No israel the Nazi state in which the Zionist Nazis live.
The Jews live elsewhere.
Again, this is antisemitic.
Again, how?
You need a good dictionary my friend.
Exactly, the state who does not represent all Jews. That one.
Israel is an ethno-state, people fighting on behalf of Israel want to eradicate Palestinian people. This doesn’t have anything to do with Jewish people in general. To conflate Israel with Jewish people is itself antisemitic.