The troops advanced into central parts of Beijing on the city’s major thoroughfares in the early morning hours of 4 June and engaged in bloody clashes with demonstrators attempting to block them, in which many people – demonstrators, bystanders, and soldiers – were killed.
Here’s a video of an interview with Chai Ling recorded on May 28, 1989 with reporter Philip Cunningham. Chai Ling was arguably the most influential leader of the student protesters at Tiananmen Square. In the interview she openly wishes for the soldiers to massacre the students after her instrumental role in blocking attempts by other activists to move the protest back to campuses, all while refusing to sacrifice herself.
Notable quotes from this interview include:-
“You, the Chinese are not worth my struggle. You are not worth my sacrifice”
“The students keep asking what shall we do next? What can we accomplish? I feel so sad, because how can I tell them what we’re actually hoping for is bloodshed - for the moment when the government has no choice but to brazenly butcher the people?”
“Only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united”
“If we allow the [protesters] movement to collapse on its own, then the government will be able to wipe out all the leaders of the movement”
Upon being asked if she will stay in the square herself after urging the students to stay she simply responded, “No, I won’t”.
When the Tiananmen Square incident erupted in violence on June 3rd, Chai Ling escaped from Beijing by train. She was eventually smuggled to Hong Kong via Operation Yellowbird, an MI6/CIA led initiative to extract dissidents who they hoped would form the nucleus of a “Chinese democracy movement in exile”. To my knowledge, no details exist about how and when she made contact with them. She was subsequently invited to study at Princeton on a full scholarship due to her pivotal role in the Tiananmen protests. She studied Politics and International Relations there, eventually picking up an MBA from Harvard. Today, she runs an internet company called Jenzabar that she founded with her husband, the lawyer Robert Maginn, a long time associate of the Republican party, having even served as the chairman of the Massachusetts Republican party between 2011 and 2013. Their company serves more than 1300 higher education institutions worldwide, whom they provide with ERP software.
I haven’t stated an opinion either way. I’ve simply provided additional context to a historical event you chose to bring up. Why do you feel the need to respond to it in such a kneejerk manner and ascribe my motives? Does the context I’ve provided make you feel uncomfortable in some way?
I have neither dismissed nor denied that a terrible incident happened at Tiananman square on the late hours of June 3rd 1989. I wish for those responsible for plotting and catalysing the incident to face justice for their crimes.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion then I’d say the US is a great deal worse than anything China has done since they took their country back, actually. It’s not even remotely close.
What’s “telling” is the way people such as yourself latch onto anything the western media has to say about America’s geopolitical rivals, in spite of any and all the evidence to the contrary; regardless of the credibility of any of the sources. I mean, are you honestly just going to lap up whatever western media outlets tell you? The guys that told you Iraq undeniably had WMDs? The cynical scum bags who banged the drum about Gaddafi and have subsequently shrugged their shoulders while Libya now wallows with open air slave markets? Those are your respectable sources? You’re going to hang off of every word from weirdo crooks like Adrian Zenz, born-again Christian “China experts” who publicly declare they’re on a mission from God to defeat communism in China? That’s the sort of “impartial” source you’re prepared to die on a hill for? Or maybe its teenagers speculating over satellite photography they pulled up from Google maps?
Here’s something I find telling; that you won’t engage whatsoever with the point I raised in response to you trying to grandstand over the Tiananmen incident; that you swivelled on a dime from gleefully using a massacre as a political football to clutching your pearls that someone dared to bring information to the table that contextualises that event into something more than the simplistic good vs evil narrative you were going for. Do yourself a favour and actually listen to what Chai Ling has to say; it’s been independently verified and held up in a libel case she brought against the journalists when it came to light, so you can rest assured its legitimate. Stop and think about what it really means for the student leader of those killed at Tiananmen to outright admit they were trying to get their supporters massacred after actively blocking attempts to disperse peacefully. Consider the potential significance that she was literally extracted out of her country by the intelligence services of China’s biggest geopolitical rivals. If you’re genuinely appalled with all the death from this event, don’t you think she and her benefactors have something to answer for? Or do you suppose its the place of the United States or Great Britain to stir up trouble in other countries, to dictate who should be in charge there and how their countries should be run?
No, what you don’t have time for is confronting inconvenient truths that fly in the face of your political agenda.
Again, as previously stated I am not downplaying this incident. It happened and it was terrible. If you’re not really just a coward ducking my point (Which I think you are) and you actually think that’s the case then I challenge you to point out how I’m doing so. This was a serious incident and many people died; don’t you think that the people who actively provoked the confrontation between students and soldiers should face up to what they’ve done?
You’re just salty that the Western backed color revolution failed in China. You would have loved to cheer the West on in sucking the country dry the same that it did with Russia after they fell for the Western lies. Just compare the life expectency graphs between Russia and China after 1989:
You’re just salty that the Western backed color revolution failed in China. You would have loved to cheer the West on in sucking the country dry the same that it did with Russia after they fell for the Western lies.
Then how come discussion of Tienanman Square is discouraged, if not banned, instead of being widely extolled as successful defiance of the West? Clearly, unless Xi is actually a US plant, the government does not want discussion of it.
Because this issue is used as a battering ram to weaken the Chinese government. The West keeps talking about there being a ‘Tiananmen Massacre’ where unarmed students were killed even though behind closed doors US diplomats admit there was no bloodshed on TIananmen. It is really hard to defend yourself against those accusations which are false when the other side doesn’t need to produce any evidence whatsoever. What is provable are the deaths of the soldiers and maoists fighting in street battles outside the square but that was not a massacre and funnily enough the West also doesn’t like to talk about those deaths
Alright, I’ll contend that. Your source is thorough enough.
Personally I still see the deaths outside Beijing in the streets to be incredibly problematic and fairly emblematic of the anti free speech/protest position by the government – but I recognize a lot of the specific rhetoric with Tienanman is about killing unarmed students. I see why this is an important distinction, it was just never a real distinction in my mind. Thank you for the clarity.
The consequences were way better than the let 'er rip nations. If China had a death toll equivalent to the United States, they’d have 5 million dead. Even the “China is lying” people are talking about hundreds of thousands, or possibly a million, not 5 million.
Staying COVID-zero until better treatments and vaccines are available actually does save lives.
Sure, but you’re whatabouting an injustice of some people being temporarily detained to FOUR MILLION LIVES. If that was actually all it took, that’s a pretty reasonable exchange.
Here’s a video of an interview with Chai Ling recorded on May 28, 1989 with reporter Philip Cunningham. Chai Ling was arguably the most influential leader of the student protesters at Tiananmen Square. In the interview she openly wishes for the soldiers to massacre the students after her instrumental role in blocking attempts by other activists to move the protest back to campuses, all while refusing to sacrifice herself.
Notable quotes from this interview include:-
“You, the Chinese are not worth my struggle. You are not worth my sacrifice”
“The students keep asking what shall we do next? What can we accomplish? I feel so sad, because how can I tell them what we’re actually hoping for is bloodshed - for the moment when the government has no choice but to brazenly butcher the people?”
“Only when the square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united”
“If we allow the [protesters] movement to collapse on its own, then the government will be able to wipe out all the leaders of the movement”
Upon being asked if she will stay in the square herself after urging the students to stay she simply responded, “No, I won’t”.
When the Tiananmen Square incident erupted in violence on June 3rd, Chai Ling escaped from Beijing by train. She was eventually smuggled to Hong Kong via Operation Yellowbird, an MI6/CIA led initiative to extract dissidents who they hoped would form the nucleus of a “Chinese democracy movement in exile”. To my knowledge, no details exist about how and when she made contact with them. She was subsequently invited to study at Princeton on a full scholarship due to her pivotal role in the Tiananmen protests. She studied Politics and International Relations there, eventually picking up an MBA from Harvard. Today, she runs an internet company called Jenzabar that she founded with her husband, the lawyer Robert Maginn, a long time associate of the Republican party, having even served as the chairman of the Massachusetts Republican party between 2011 and 2013. Their company serves more than 1300 higher education institutions worldwide, whom they provide with ERP software.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/5__ESiklA1A
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
What even is your point? Does one protester’s desire for violence justify the Chinese government’s violence?
Straight up disgusting attempt to dismiss what happened at Tienanmen square. Gee I wonder what your opinion on the chinese govt is.
I haven’t stated an opinion either way. I’ve simply provided additional context to a historical event you chose to bring up. Why do you feel the need to respond to it in such a kneejerk manner and ascribe my motives? Does the context I’ve provided make you feel uncomfortable in some way?
I have neither dismissed nor denied that a terrible incident happened at Tiananman square on the late hours of June 3rd 1989. I wish for those responsible for plotting and catalysing the incident to face justice for their crimes.
you and the others feel it’s the best use of time to call out how the US is just as bad. That is telling.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion then I’d say the US is a great deal worse than anything China has done since they took their country back, actually. It’s not even remotely close.
What’s “telling” is the way people such as yourself latch onto anything the western media has to say about America’s geopolitical rivals, in spite of any and all the evidence to the contrary; regardless of the credibility of any of the sources. I mean, are you honestly just going to lap up whatever western media outlets tell you? The guys that told you Iraq undeniably had WMDs? The cynical scum bags who banged the drum about Gaddafi and have subsequently shrugged their shoulders while Libya now wallows with open air slave markets? Those are your respectable sources? You’re going to hang off of every word from weirdo crooks like Adrian Zenz, born-again Christian “China experts” who publicly declare they’re on a mission from God to defeat communism in China? That’s the sort of “impartial” source you’re prepared to die on a hill for? Or maybe its teenagers speculating over satellite photography they pulled up from Google maps?
Here’s something I find telling; that you won’t engage whatsoever with the point I raised in response to you trying to grandstand over the Tiananmen incident; that you swivelled on a dime from gleefully using a massacre as a political football to clutching your pearls that someone dared to bring information to the table that contextualises that event into something more than the simplistic good vs evil narrative you were going for. Do yourself a favour and actually listen to what Chai Ling has to say; it’s been independently verified and held up in a libel case she brought against the journalists when it came to light, so you can rest assured its legitimate. Stop and think about what it really means for the student leader of those killed at Tiananmen to outright admit they were trying to get their supporters massacred after actively blocking attempts to disperse peacefully. Consider the potential significance that she was literally extracted out of her country by the intelligence services of China’s biggest geopolitical rivals. If you’re genuinely appalled with all the death from this event, don’t you think she and her benefactors have something to answer for? Or do you suppose its the place of the United States or Great Britain to stir up trouble in other countries, to dictate who should be in charge there and how their countries should be run?
Fascinating stuff, I enjoyed reading this thread. I don’t agree that the US has been worse than China, but you do make some very good points.
yeah I don’t have time to debate people who are only interested in downplaying something really fucked up. Sorry – I won’t read this.
No, what you don’t have time for is confronting inconvenient truths that fly in the face of your political agenda.
Again, as previously stated I am not downplaying this incident. It happened and it was terrible. If you’re not really just a coward ducking my point (Which I think you are) and you actually think that’s the case then I challenge you to point out how I’m doing so. This was a serious incident and many people died; don’t you think that the people who actively provoked the confrontation between students and soldiers should face up to what they’ve done?
You’re just salty that the Western backed color revolution failed in China. You would have loved to cheer the West on in sucking the country dry the same that it did with Russia after they fell for the Western lies. Just compare the life expectency graphs between Russia and China after 1989:
Then how come discussion of Tienanman Square is discouraged, if not banned, instead of being widely extolled as successful defiance of the West? Clearly, unless Xi is actually a US plant, the government does not want discussion of it.
Because this issue is used as a battering ram to weaken the Chinese government. The West keeps talking about there being a ‘Tiananmen Massacre’ where unarmed students were killed even though behind closed doors US diplomats admit there was no bloodshed on TIananmen. It is really hard to defend yourself against those accusations which are false when the other side doesn’t need to produce any evidence whatsoever. What is provable are the deaths of the soldiers and maoists fighting in street battles outside the square but that was not a massacre and funnily enough the West also doesn’t like to talk about those deaths
Alright, I’ll contend that. Your source is thorough enough.
Personally I still see the deaths outside Beijing in the streets to be incredibly problematic and fairly emblematic of the anti free speech/protest position by the government – but I recognize a lot of the specific rhetoric with Tienanman is about killing unarmed students. I see why this is an important distinction, it was just never a real distinction in my mind. Thank you for the clarity.
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“China’s life expectancy is great and didn’t suffer at all even from the pandemic!”
Source: China
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The consequences were way better than the let 'er rip nations. If China had a death toll equivalent to the United States, they’d have 5 million dead. Even the “China is lying” people are talking about hundreds of thousands, or possibly a million, not 5 million.
Staying COVID-zero until better treatments and vaccines are available actually does save lives.
deleted by creator
Sure, but you’re whatabouting an injustice of some people being temporarily detained to FOUR MILLION LIVES. If that was actually all it took, that’s a pretty reasonable exchange.
literally no clue wtf you’re raving about, but I’m sure it’s pro-China propaganda…