I’d ask the same question back to you, but replace Ukraine with the LPR and DPR. Liberals had absolutely nothing to say of the thousands of civilians in the Donbass murdered by the NATO installed Ukraine regime since 2014. I don’t know what they expected to happen, just like I don’t know what Israel expected to happen by continuing their occupation and genocide of Palestine

Compare NATO expansion to Russia’s borders since the USSR collapsed, then tell me again who’s the invading force.

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the palestinian resistance, and indeed the palestinian people, do not want “peace.” what they want, and what they deserve, is liberation, that is, freedom of movement, the right of return, economic security, and real political representation. the “peaceful” occupation of palestine means the destruction of palestinian villages by settlers, IDF patrols and checkpoints, starvation and disease caused by blockades and rationing of food, water, and medicine, and within “Israel,” relegation to second-class citizenship and legal eviction from their homes.

ukrainians want peace. they want a return to being a mostly functional country in which they can live and move freely, an option which has never been offered to palestinians. this will be achieved by ending the war, which will be achieved by diplomacy, not more weapons. the continuation of the war is being forced on the working class by the apathetic governments of both sides and the meddling moneymen of the imperialist west.

Russia and the Ukraine crisis: The Eurasian Project in conflict with the triad imperialist policies, By Samir Amin

Going to quote the most important parts, I recommend reading the entire article.

The current global stage is dominated by the attempt of historical centers of imperialism (the U.S., Western and Central Europe, Japan—hereafter called “the Triad”) to maintain their exclusive control over the planet through a combination of:

• so-called neo-liberal economic globalization policies allowing financial transnational capital of the Triad to decide alone on all issues in their exclusive interests;
• the military control of the planet by the U.S. and its subordinate allies (NATO and Japan) in order to annihilate any attempt by any country not of the Triad to move out from under their yoke.

In that respect all countries of the world not of the Triad are enemies or potential enemies, except those who accept complete submission to the economic and political strategy of the Triad… In that frame Russia is “an enemy.”

After the breakdown of the Soviet system, some people (in Russia in particular) thought that the “West” would not antagonize a “capitalist Russia”—just as Germany and Japan had “lost the war but won the peace.” They forgot that the Western powers supported the reconstruction of the former fascist countries precisely to face the challenge of the independent policies of the Soviet Union. Now, this challenge having disappeared, the target of the Triad is complete submission, to destroy the capacity of Russia to resist.

The current development of the Ukraine tragedy illustrates the reality of the strategic target of the Triad.

The Triad organized in Kiev what ought to be called a “Euro/Nazi putsch.” To achieve their target (separating the historical twin sister nations—the Russian and the Ukrainian), they needed the support of local Nazis.

The rhetoric of the Western medias, claiming that the policies of the Triad aim at promoting democracy, is simply a lie. Nowhere has the Triad promoted democracy. On the contrary these policies have systematically been supporting the most anti-democratic (in some cases “fascist”) local forces. Quasi-fascist in the former Yugoslavia—in Croatia and Kosovo—as well as in the Baltic states and Eastern Europe, Hungary for instance. Eastern Europe has been “integrated” in the European Union not as equal partners, but as “semi-colonies” of major Western and Central European capitalist/imperialist powers. The relation between West and East in the European system is in some degree similar to that which rules the relations between the U.S. and Latin America! In the countries of the South the Triad supported the extreme anti-democratic forces such as, for instance, ultra-reactionary political Islam and, with their complicity, has destroyed societies; the cases of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya illustrate these targets of the Triad imperialist project.

Therefore the policy of Russia (as developed by the administration of Putin) to resist the project of colonization of Ukraine (and of other countries of the former Soviet Union, in Transcaucasia and Central Asia) must be supported. The Baltic states’ experience should not be repeated. The target of constructing a “Eurasian” community, independent from the Triad and its subordinate European partners, is also to be supported.

Ukraine and Palestine are not equivalent at all. If you want to make crude analogies, it’s closer to this:

Gaza Strip = Donbass

Hamas and other Palestinian militants = Donbass separatists

Israel = Ukraine (or post-Maiden Ukraine if you want to be more pedantic)

Hezbollah or Iran = Russia

The equivalent of the IDF bombing Gaza is the Ukrainian army shelling the Donbass. If Hezbollah were to invade Israel from the north and be within walking distance from Tel Aviv, that would be the equivalent of Russia invading Ukraine and reaching the outskirts of Kiev. If Iran were to launch missiles at key locations in Israel, that would be the equivalent of Russia launching missiles at key locations in Ukraine.

And this isn’t even considering that Israel is a settler colony, and we should always support the downfall of settler colonies regardless of whether they’re in the right for a particular situation. Neither Ukraine nor Russia are settler colonies. At best, you can argue Crimea is a Russian settler colony because the tsar ethnically cleansed Crimea of Crimean Tatars, but neither Ukraine nor Russia are interested in establishing an independent Crimean Khanate, so it’s just two groups of eastern Slavs fighting over a peninsula that neither group is indigenous to.

Are Palestinians back by the most powerful miltary in the world?

Have you seen what Norman Finkelstein has to say about Russia? He actually did an interview with Chapotraphouse a while ago that I thought was extremely interesting, though I don’t entirely agree with his interpretations and I wish he’d find a more delicate way to talk about the race issues that Obama exploited for his career.

I still think of Putin in mafioso terms, but Dr. Finkelstein’s reading is not without justification.

Oh, as a complete aside that I don’t think is actually pertinent to arguing the Ukraine issue either way, Russia significantly does want to denazify Ukraine, not because of any sort of principled commitment to antifascism or whatever (no such thing exists in the Kremlin), but because the Ukrainian Nazis are the most diehard Ukrainian nationalists in this whole situation and eradicating them makes the political project of [negotiating with/subjugating; take your pick, I don’t care] Ukraine much, much easier. Now, there will certainly be an uptick in Russian Nazis in Ukraine if Russia succeeds, but it won’t be a nearly comparable magnitude or have comparable implications to Ukrainian Nazis (e.g. the Banderite cult having free reign to indoctrinate Ukraine and The West with literal Nazi propaganda). Russian Nazis, like all Nazis, should be at the very least reeducated, and killed whenever necessary for removing them from power. I believe Russia winning does mean fewer Nazis running around, but mainly because of ending that “Banderite indoctrination” thing and not the killing of Azovites in particular.

I’m not going to read through all my comrades’ responses since I pretty much know what they’re gonna say, I just hope no one is attacking you because this is a legitimate question to ask and seems in good faith.

I think it’s more accurate, and might be easier to understand our position, if you think of the Russia-Ukraine war as more of a Russia-US proxy war which, unfortunately, a lot of Ukrainians are now stuck in the middle of. Most folks on hexbear are not pro-Russia, but because in this conflict (and at this point of history) Russia represents multipolarity as opposed to US, western hegemony, many of us have taken up pro-Russia positions to varying degrees.

Another point is that the war could really be said to have begun in 2014, or at least that’s when the lead up to this conflict began. And so from 2014 until now Ukraine has just been a pawn, with western governments using it to erode Russian influence. I think many of us see the us as ultimately hoping to make Russia a us vassal state along with the rest of Europe. So Ukraine has really just become this geopolitical chess piece in a great power war. Of course Russia using the region as a geopolitical pawn to further their interests is also not great, but because Russia in this instance is doing so as part of the drive for greater multipolarity and to chip away at US domination, and really when you get down to it as a defensive measure against US expansion, we tend to take that side.

Although I think saying we take Russia’s side is a bit disingenuous since, when you get through all the Ukrainian Nazi jokes, there is the acknowledgement that a lot of people are now caught in the middle of this great power conflict. However we don’t squarely put the blame on Russia for that, and Russia’s goals - multipolarity, the chipping away of US hegemony - broadly line up with ours, and also countries which we do support, eg. China, Cuba, Venezuela, have taken up this position.

why does the us state department support ukrainian resistance but not palestinian resistance? it’s basically the same answer but inverted

Now why can’t the same logic be applied to Ukraine?

Ukraine doesn’t even support Palestinian resistance. Why should I care about a movement and government that stands with and are inspired by the genocidal Israeli forces? Ukraine could easily win some diplomatic points and confuse leftists by standing in solidarity with Palestine and condemning Israel and comparing them to evil ruskies, but they don’t. Why? Well:

It’s like saying “why do you support Vietnamese resistance but not Khmer Rogue resistance?”

Finkelstein himself has commented on this case and has in fact taken the position you question. He actually makes the most radical version of this case that I’ve seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu9LJ8OAUBE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98aeggkK34I

I would argue people in general have no conception of what US foreign policy actually is or how the present iteration connects historically, once you begin to sketch that picture the pieces begin to fall into place.

bump cause I don’t have a good answer tbh

I’ve seen how the US behaved in Iraq, Afghanistan when it came to civilians, and how ‘Israel’ is now. That’s what indiscriminately killing civilians looks like. It’s categorically not how Russia has been conducting itself.

If anything the people who sided with the Russians have been far more on the receiving end of violence towards civilians, and I think that’s why I find it a lot easier to not support the Ukranian government. Those are supposedly ‘its’ civilians yet it’s been shelling them for years, and only stopped because Russians made them stop.