In my opinion, there are two big things holding Lemmy back right now:
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Lemmy needs DIDs.
No, not dissociative identity disorder, Decentralized Identities.
The problem is that signing up on one instance locks you to that instance. If the instance goes down, so does all of your data, history, settings, etc. Sure, you can create multiple accounts, but then it’s up to you to create secure, unique passwords for each and manage syncing between them. Nobody will do this for more than two instances.
Without this, people will be less willing to sign up for instances that they perceive “might not make it”, and flock for the biggest ones, thus removing the benefits of federation.
This is especially bad for moderators. Currently, external communities that exist locally on defederated instances cannot be moderated by the home-instance accounts. This isn’t a problem of moderation tooling, but it can be (mostly*) solved by having a single identity that can be used on any instance.
*Banning the account could create the same issue.
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Communities need to federate too.
Just as instances can share their posts in one page, communities should be able to federate with other, similar communities. This would help to solve the problem of fragmentation and better unify the instances.
Obviously there are plenty of bugs and QoL features that could dramatically improve the usage of Lemmy, but these two things are critical to unification across decentralized services.
What do you think?
EDIT: There’s been a lot (much more than I expected) of good discussion here, so thank you all for providing your opinions.
It was pointed out that there are github issues #1 and #2 addressing these points already, so I wanted to put that in the main post.
Point 1 is part of why I’m gonna start self-hosting a Lemmy instance at some point. If I host my own instance then I can back up my data and ensure it’s never lost.
I think these are “nice to have” features rather than absolutely essential, but:
For 1. I could deal with just being able to download my list of subscriptions and upload it to another server. That’s the only bit that’s really slow to copy over by hand.
For 2. I think the main thing that really would benefit is the ability to search all active communities on all servers. The way it is now is alright if there are only half a dozen really active instances whose communities I might be interested in, but it doesn’t scale if there are hundreds of servers to check out. Probably the more important of the two IMHO in the long run.
Being able to download your own data would be a start
Yeah, search all federated communities.
It would not be hard to get a list of all communities on each federated instance. Update it a few times a day, even once a day.
But this is the hardest thing for me, searching is a challenge
The Fediverse in general needs federated identities, preferrably self-sovereign. Something like nostr, with validation signatures. E.g., you own your ID, and validate it with some mechanism of your preference. If midwest.social trusts your validator, it creates a space for your ID.
I don’t think this is conceptually or implementationally difficult, but it would require a well written standard and consider both privacy issues (for users) and protections against spammers and bad actors (for hosting providers). I don’t thing PGP’s web-of-trust model would be a bad one. I think using the nostr network (quasi online chain) would be a great idea, and all of the parts are there; it would need a decent UI and support in each Fedi server implementation - which would be the biggest hurdle.
This would address the DID issue, and I agree with you that this is issue #1. Right now, users don’t own their identities: their hosting service does. If midwest.social chose to, they could nuke my account and the canonical source of truth for all my posts. I run my own ActivityPub server and so own the account I use for Mastodon; and, perhaps, someday Fediverse federation will evolve to the point where I can use that account for everything. But it’s an expensive node for me to operate, and not everyone can run their own server. Better, self-sovereign, and truly federated DIDs is incredibly important.
Lemmy needs two things to be successful:
- users
- users
and it’s already getting more and more of each of those.
It won’t get more users if it continues to be difficult to use.
- Create account
- interact with community
- ???
- Profit
Terribly difficult
Thank you for that insightful comment. You’ve really addressed my point in its entirety, and thoroughly proven me to be a dullard. I submit to your vast intelligence.
I mean …
That’s active users last month. Roughly +50% or +10k in less than a week.
So the data seems to strongly speek against it; lemmy gets more users just fine despite being so difficult.
One question is how many of those will leave again. And obviously, we should strive to make it more user friendly. I fully support your proposals. I just don’t think it’s right to paint them as a necessity for growth, they evidently aren’t.
Twelve of those are mine, due partly to the very shortcomings being discussed here.
people kept saying similar stuff about Mastodon, and yet, miraculously, its user base somehow keeps growing.
It is a lot easier to attract users if you do not have to make an account on many different instances
Good thing you don’t have to do that then!
You don’t need to make accounts on many instances.
Lemmy needs me to be able to login…Let’s start with the basics.
Decentralized Identity could be implemented relatively easily just by allowing users to enter a their public key, like in git or PGP. How to sync the data is a different matter though. Maybe you can enter a username (e.g. @user@instance) in your instance’s search field and have it federated to your account there if the cryptographic signature matches?
Thank you for finding and writing the words for it.
Both points describe very well what I miss at least in Lemmy like Fediverse platforms.
These are good points. It sucks that as a PhD student in CS, I still don’t understand the workings of federation and other important Internet concepts. I hope someone smarter will work on this stuff, though.
You don’t need an upfront detailed understanding of everything to get started. Contributing to projects like this is a research project like any other.
That’s fair. I think I should invest my time in contributing to third-party apps, though. That’s a barrier to entry for newbies, I think, who want to be able to tap an app on their phone instead of going to a website. I believe Memmy uses Expo, which I might be able to contribute to.
Counter strike?
I don’t think these are such a big deal. Point 2 is cool, and sounds somewhat feasible, but I’d like to hear your plan to implement the first one. It’s a lot of work, and I don’t think it would affect flocking that much.
Edit: Edited quite a lot.
Lateposting, but DIDs would also solve a problem I have on kbin. I have an account on a certain kbin server because I wanted to pick a smallish server. A server small enough that it isn’t a big hub and thus helps out with federation, but big enough that it’s probably not just one person’s personal server that will only ever run during the 10 minute windows where they personally want to check kbin, which probably won’t overlap with my own.
Sometimes that server goes down. So I also have an account on the biggest kbin server of them all, kbin.social, so I can still use the site and interact with it when my home server is down.
Posting this on Beehaw because I didn’t subscribe to Technology until after this post was made, and I currently have no way to force this post to show up for me on kbin.
I like the idea of aggregating communities. Especially if the modding tools are powerful enough. This could lead to communities being essentially curated lists of other communities. Which is great for new users to discover new communities without being overwhelmed by the unordered list of communities on the instance.
Another feature that I’d like to see is an equivalent to the mastodon’s lists, a way to aggregate communities for yourself. So that you could browse the content of communities sharing a same theme in a dedicated view.
I think number 1 is important so it’s easier to move. Otherwise we could feel centralized to one instance rather than feeling free to federate
Regarding point 1- if people would just stop signing up on lemmy.world, lemmy.ml, and beehaw.org, because they have the most people-
Things would go much smoother!
Pick an instance based on uptime, or hell, create your own instance.
Piling all of the eggs into a single basket is destined to result in failure.
I signed up with lemmy.ca and I regret it. It doesn’t load “all” content very well so I have to hunt to find content. Hopefully they will fix it.
We can only go up from here!
Also, cannot promise my instance is any better, but, your welcome to try it. https://lemmyonline.com/
Its working quite nicely today though.
It’s not an instance problem, it’s a Lemmy sorting/loading/ranking problem. It doesn’t seem to show very well popular posts from other instances like beehaw or lemmy.ml.
Known issue, going to be fixed soon in the 18.0 release. Until then, just gotta sort by new.
if people would just stop signing up on lemmy.world, lemmy.ml, and beehaw.org, because they have the most people-
Things would go much smoother!
Somehow I trust the individual instances to self regulate. When an instance thinks it should not grow any further at the moment, it can close for new registrations, and users will naturally flock to others which are still open. I don’t see this as a responsibility of the users, and in case of users completely new to lemmy, I also don’t see how they could make a reliably informed decision.
In all fairness- if they closed registrations on those instances, lots of the new users would end up confused, and go post on reddit that lemmy isn’t allowing new registrations.
That being said, those instances are overloaded. They have posted multiple threads on the issue already.
if they closed registrations on those instances, lots of the new users would end up confused, and go post on reddit that lemmy isn’t allowing new registrations.
I think anyways the registration process should be dumbed down. Simple version:
- User sees no instances or servers during registration
- When they click on ‘register’, a random instance (which allows new registrations) is chosen
- There is a small link ‘advanced options’ which allows users to see and choose instances
This would balance the load between instances and make it much easier for newcomers to join.
I realize we were talking about slightly different views. You had a scenario in mind where people try to join a specific instance (for example because someone promoted that specific instance somewhere else), I was talking about https://join-lemmy.org/
That would be awkward in some cases. Say, if a non-Nazi ended up on a Nazi server by random chance.
But we could also send tankies to the nazis and nazis to the tankies and grab some popcorn.
You’re right, situations can occur. But it’s not a permanent thing. People can make another new account on an instance which they deem suitable after they have familiarized themselves with lemmy by spending some days or weeks in it. Expecting a bloody newcomer to choose a good instance isn’t so far from random choice anyways.
Also tbh, I have little to no interactions with people from my instance. I subscribe to topics I care for regardless of where they are hosted. People like me would hardly notice they share a server with nazis, as each would flock to different communities.
For the second one there is an issue on github discussing it.
I don’t see the big problem in 1. Compare it to e-mail. If you want to switch provider you have to backup and restore your emails if you want to.
Nobody bats an eye that amiladresses contain a maildomain but with Lemmy everyone is used to the reddit way. Give it some time, people will get used to it.
The syncing and federation problems we are experiencing right now will get solved in the future, people will get used to the new naming scheme.
Point 2 is a great idea btw.
Notice how everyone pretty much uses gmail? If gmail goes down you lose access to everything, but it won’t because it’s google and they have money to throw at problems. That’s not true for Lemmy (and we don’t want that because it leads to Reddit 2.0 where all power is centralized).
There is also the additional issue of defederation, not just your instance stability. Like if you happen to be one of the 30k users on lemmy.world, or any of the smaller ones that got cut off from Beehaw because you trusted the “it doesn’t matter where you make your account, it’s all shared in the fediverse!” - if there’s a constant risk Gmail decides to block all Hotmail users one day, creating a Gmail account in the first place seems like the safer bet.
Email servers getting blocked is definitely a thing that happens otherwise your inbox would be nothing but spam.
Back in the early 2000s it was still possible to run a mail server locally on a dialup line and have big mail servers accept emails saying “yo the return address for this is myaccount@bigmail.com”, not using bigmail’s outgoing servers, you can absolutely forget about doing that now. Back in those days I would also have 200+ spam mails per day, the situation was so untenable that nowadays you can’t even get an email account without included spam filter unless you set up your own server.
Lemmy and the overall fediverse is not really in that situation yet, where actual commercial spammers make it a target, and the smaller hiccups and maybe a bit trigger happy beehaw admins just mean that when the shit deluge finally arrives, we’ll have the tools to deal with it.
