I just want to be left alone.
Bruh. No you fucking don’t. You want to use society’s infrastructure and benefits without contributing to it. If you really want to be left alone, go follow Alexander Supertramp’s lead.
Socialism
*Everyone claps
Socialism is NOT whatever the hell this “sovereign citizen” stuff is.
Socialism is instead a democratization of the benefits of our collective labor.
Rather than permit the kings and nobles, billionaires, athletes, movie stars, politicians, and pop idols to take the lion’s share - we use it to invest in our society, our collective well being.
You work? I do too. And so do the clerks at the gas stations and grocery stores - the brick layers and the office workers - we’re all just working a job for a living.
For the ones that can’t or don’t want to work - Setting aside the murky definition of “work” - I’d rather they be fed, clothes, housed and warm, because it means safer lives for everyone.
The trick is the ones who don’t want to work quickly outnumber the ones who do when you don’t need to work for a living.
What evidence are you basing that assertion on?
History.
Quite the powerful and convincing example you’ve cited there.
Hey, I’m not responsible for your education. Your idea has been tried multiple times. I really don’t care whether you’re convinced the world is round or not.
it’s not his fault you don’t know anything
Just because YOU’RE a particularly selfish jerk, doesn’t mean everyone is. Most people want to contribute and feel useful. Alot of people wouldn’t give two shits about flipping burgers if they had a reasonable work environment and could live reasonably from it.
Work is insufferable because most work environments are garbage worlds of drama and living under the guillotine of job cuts or under staffing paired with overwork. With UBI and/or better social benefits, people could breathe for two seconds and find something that fits them well or feel safe leaving a hostile workplace.
They’d still be working, but they could find the right job for them instead of being trapped - which would improve work quality for EVERYONE because a nightmare workplace would just be starved of labor instead of being able to jerk workers around cause the alternative is homelessness.
Oh, I’m so hurt by you lashing out in an ignorant personal attack because your feelings are hurt. There, there. Have a cookie and some milk. Don’t you feel better now?
Option A: Once you’re in control of yourself again, slow down and think through what you said. It’s not very logical. If most people don’t have to work to live, they won’t. And even if what you say is true “the right job for them” is going to leave a whole lot of essential jobs relatively empty. Some of those jobs are hard to fill even with financial incentive.
Option B: If you can’t control yourself, this conversation is now over.
I see you don’t have anything to add except flailing over 4 words out of 140 then doubling down on being a catty little child, and a hearty self-masturbatory “nuh uh.”
Could just admit you have no counterargument, but either way I’m not obligated to engage with disengenuous tone policing garbage. Bye Felicia.
Look at how many bullshit jobs there are and realise that collectively we don’t need to be doing anywhere near as much work as we do.
Socialism is a form of government. This lot want to be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with no consequence, that’s not socialism that’s just anarchy.
It’s not even anarchy. Most SovCits are cops, but anyway, must other SovCits also want government to exist and provide benefits. For free. With no consequences or laws that would restrict what they themselves do.
Narrator: he was, in fact, a criminal and did, in fact, make things worse for himself. He did not, however, gain any wisdom from this experience.
he acted dumb like he didn’t know what “natural man” meant.
Um…no one fucking does. You’re in a weird cult-like mind trap.
It’s an actual thing:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person
distinguished from the broader category of a legal person, which may be a private (i.e., business entity or non-governmental organization) or public (i.e., government) organization.
Ugh, do I read that and probably rabbit hole myself? Or ignore the link and move on…
Edit. You know what I did. And I’m not proud of it.
A natural person isn’t quite the same thing. It literally just means a human and not an organization or corporation. There are some legal differences mostly to do with culpability.
It doesn’t really come up very often.
What this lot seem to be going at is they think that their name, written as capital letters is some sort of corporation, set up against their will?, with their name and as such they are not the corporation and so cannot be charged. Which is obviously lunacy because a corporation has not been set up with their name and even if one had, they were the one doing the driving offenses, not the corporation (a corporation cannot commit driving offenses). But they’re all too thick for their own internal logic to apply.
In non-stupid crazy land if I am a truck driver and I commit a driving offense while driving for company XYZ then I committed the driving offense, not company XYZ. Unless I could prove that I had been given the instruction to drive unsafely, which of course is where all the things like tachometers come in. All this has already being decided long ago, so the stuff they are referring to doesn’t even apply.
I read this differently. He says:
I asked if there was a “natural man” in the court room with a claim against me?
(The “plaintiff” on my paperwork stated “The People of the State of California vs. MY ALL CAPS NAME”)
So… I think he was trying to claim that only a natural person can be a plaintiff, and because he was sued by the government - which is not a natural person - the whole thing should be invalidated.
only a natural person can be a plaintiff
A very strange position given the amount of case law of the form [person X] vs United States
Definitely silly, but [person X] is the plaintiff in those cases - United States is the defendant.
You’re looking for case law of the form “United States vs [person X]”, which the sovcits believe is illegal but exists because everyone else doesn’t know to question it.
Did you swap out your license plate for a fake one that says something about travelling and not commercial?
Why aren’t you proud of increasing your knowledge?
I nearly went down a rabbit hole on that, like, well what is a Natural Man, or is it all caps? So glad I restrained my inborn curiosity. Ain’ got time for that. lol
Oh lol I was hoping you did have time for that so you could give me a brief rundown because I also don’t have time for that
Well…that’s not true. I do have the time, I just would rather…not spend it doing that.
what is a Natural Man,
A featherless biped.
Behold, @tar_alcaran 's man
Tar, unfeathered
Fucking nailed it.
Only if the nails are broad and flat.
It’s not a gender thing.
Holy shit.
The legal genius has spent several weeks in jail because of traffic infringement?
What an special person they are.
“The judge seemed annoyed”. You don’t say.
it’s not like he interrupted the judge - wait, no he actually admitted doing that, too…
And he still has to face punishment for the traffic infraction.
Oof, two months in jail because you won’t “bend the knee” to a judge after admittedly driving without a license and leading the police on a chase (no cop should chase somebody for something so stupid, considering how dangerous police chases are, but that’s another matter).
What an idiot.
I’m curious if anybody gave him any advice.
Homie’s profile pic is the NASA logo, but instead of NASA says lies. They probably think the world is flat. You would get farther arguing with a brick than this person.
Homie’s profile pick in the NASA logo, but instead of NASA says lies. They probably think the world is flat.
Oof.
OP is here for you.
The judge took the case last to not waste the time of people who had things to do.
any advice from someone more experienced & knowledgeable would be much appreciated
If only there was some professional that could provide such legal knowledge and experience
The courts tried to appoint me a public pretender again while I was incarcerated, I declined
🤦
My lawyer friend LOVES prosecuting sovcits. Has won them all.
They’d be a pretty shit lawyer if they couldn’t. They’re playing make-believe in a place that has hard rules. Unless their defence includes some kind of “insanity” plea, I don’t know how any of them have any “victory against the courts” stories to tell.
That’s like punting an infant across the street and saying that you “won the fight.”
As I understand it the problem is upholding the conviction. I mean… it’s hard to argue that a intellectually challenged individual who represented themselves based on legal advice from a conman had adequate legal representation.
I’m pretty sure “your honor I’m an idiot” is not actually a defense. Especially in the absence of any other defense. I.e. a reason to drive without a license.
any advice from someone more experienced & knowledgeable would be much appreciated
Stop! You’ve violated the law! Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence.
Okay I know what to do from here.
First, reverse pickpocket poison apples into all of the guards inventories, then hang out in their barracks until they all eat poisoned apples, once the guards all die steal their stuff and sell it to the town merchants. Now not only are you richer, but the town’s guards can’t arrest you on account of being dead.
The best part is that when the guards eventually respawn they keep the poisoned status and will quickly die again, with a new loadout of guard equipment!
Ahh the old Oblivion trick. Gets’em every time
No, no, no. I don’t want that kind of advice. Tell me the secret to not having to deal with any of this and getting a bunch of money for free.
Maybe I’m crazy but the more of these I read the more I feel bad for these people.
It’s like the law is so alien and arbitrary to them, that even when presented with strong evidence that they’re wrong, they can’t see they’ve been deceived. They’d rather live in a world where laws can be invalidated just because they’re unfair or arcane (as long as you know the magic spell of course…).
I kind of sympathize with that: the law IS alien and often arbitrary for us common folk.
The law isn’t hard to understand it’s just hard to understand the specifics of. That’s not quite the same thing.
I do not think anyone really believes that they are allowed to drive on a suspended license, they know they’re not allowed to drive on the suspended license, but they are selfish and they do not care. They just think that there’s some weird loophole that will allow them to get away with it.
The problem is, everything they think they know about the law comes from a facebook group of crazy people.
But that’s the thing though: devil’s in the details. That’s why we hire lawyers. I mean, driving on a suspended license is illegal for everyone and it’s very obvious. Pretty much everyone gets the same ticket.
Just like stealing and embezzlement. Some guy at my work just got fired for that, and rightly so. He stole like, a hundred dollars worth of candy. They’re prosecuting him for it. Not sure why he did it, he was on camera taking an entire case, very silly stuff.
Too bad he didn’t steal 5.6 million dollars from 1,000 people. Then it would just be a civil case that takes 10+ years to litigate.
Edit: the dealers were actually seeking a combined 50 mil, and after legal fees (1.4 mil) and etc each got about 4K. Justice!
I suspect there’s a group of sovcits (perhaps even the majority of them) who are assholes looking to shirk alimony or child support, or wanting to drive after their 5th DUI took their license.
But yeah, on the other hand, I get why some people are rightfully angry about corps and rich people getting away with murder, and so they do their own “research” on how to figure out the loopholes of things like making yourself into a corporation. Too bad the reality is the a) rich people do exist in a separate justice system and b) they’re far too dumb to be able to make legal loopholes work for them. Plus most of those loopholes involve a ton of money in the first place (refer back to point a).
Too bad he didn’t steal 5.6 million dollars from 1,000 people. Then it would just be a civil case that takes 10+ years to litigate.
It’s not about how much you steal, it’s about how expensive are the lawyers you can afford.
5.6 million dollars buys a lot more lawyers than a case of candy
If you rob a bank for $5.6m, and get caught, I’m pretty sure won’t be allowed to use that money to pay a lawyer. Wynn Resorts needed to have enough funds for legal expenses even without the money in dispute.
lawyers, like bankers, are the only winners in the game they play
It’s more like this is a myth they can believe in. They feel trapped in an unfair, punitive and coercive system where they functionally have no real choices. The myth of sovereign citizens allows them to grasp onto a hope that actually they do have some choice. “I never consented to this, I never chose this, so I must be able to opt out, right?” In some ways, it’s much like the myth people tell of the “Reptilian Overlords”. Looking at the unfairness, abusiveness, and callousness of those in power, it’s easier for some to cling to a story that explains their “otherness” than accept that humans do horrible shit to each other and accept that is part of one’s own identity.
Exactly. Well said.
I’ve always thought it so odd how people can look at something like greed and we pretty much all agree, that thing is bad.
Go out to dinner with some friends and just start taking everyone’s food and drink and you aren’t getting invited out again.
Then for our society we were like “what if we let greed be the driving force of this thing and the greediest people who take up the absolute most for themselves we will turn into celebrities!”
In my life I’ve known lots of people and most have been pretty regular fine people. It’s like our entire society is being held back by a small group of people going “no you can’t have nice things because if you had a nice thing a person like me would come in and fuck it all up to make a profit” and then we put those people in charge.
I was so confused by this as a kid when I started to comprehend international politics. I remember asking my parents, “kids know this isn’t ok. How do groups of adults behave like this?”
*are trapped, just like you
Nobody has any power over me. I think Jesus and Marcus Aurelius agree on that.
laws can be invalidated just because they’re unfair or arcane
The trending suggests that the laws these whackados are neither unfair nor arcane. We have custody rights, we have speed limits and loan payment and utility charges, insurance requirements and proof a driver can pass a basic proficiency test, and that seems to be the bulk of it.
Call it a bias, because it is, but I’m only seeing dirtbags shirking their responsibility as a member of society while still demanding its protections. But until we have a remote island to put all our non-society people where they can live out the short remainder of their anarchic lives in the environment they claim to want, without money and trust and standards and testing and trivial service to the society for the good of everyone through consolidation and specialization that allows, until we can give these people the daily fishing and water-toting grind they so desperately demand because the don’t understand the appendicitis is still a thing there too, we have to let them exist in our society.
Is that their leverage? We can’t give them what they demand so we have to let them re-create their more primitive way of life with all the benefits of modern society? They know hawaii makes new islands all the time, right?
I can’t understand most of this incomprehensible rant, but this goes both ways. The law uses arcane rules to keep people in or keep people from seeking justice at all.
Often the arcane rules are really the only thing that helps people. For instance, in some states there are time limits on appealing a case, so even if you do find some you can’t present it. The only option at that point may be to prove a mistrial in order to even present the new evidence.
You would think we have people involved to keep the whole thing empathetic and human, but… You’d be wrong, and maybe people are just fucking awful anyway.
In most cases though people don’t try. The state throws so much red tape at them they just plead out to avoid the hassle. Out justice system is really designed for efficiency st this point and not for justice. We’re too cheap to invest in actual justice.
That’s… why they’re guaranteed representation by someone who knows the law. This idiot gave up that right.
Meh. I work in tech and a big part of my day is just communicating with non tech trying to make sure they understand. It’s just part of having a job imo. We have an entire customer support department just to do it with customers.
Lawyers and judges often are just fucking lazy assholes.
The sad thing is that even after going to jail, being evaluated to make sure he’s not out of his gourd, AND being shown a fair amount of leniency for his bullshit, he’s not going to learn a goddamn thing. What would be a wake up call for people not in a cult has just sent him straight back to the cult to ask for help in escalating even further.
What’s kind of fascinating to me is that sovereign citizens seem to consistently believe that if their bullshit doesn’t work then it’s their fault for not doing the correct incantation. Like judges are the fey.
The law is magic to them.
They don’t understand it, but they have been told that certain spells can grant immunity.
When the spell does not work, it is not because they have been sold a load of shit by a grifter, they just didn’t do it right.
These idiots genuinely believe that there are magic words which they can incant to get what they want.
Just, wak into the wilderness and die please.
magic words which they can incant to get what they want.
They see it every day. It is unfair that they can’t do the same as people like Trump.
Hmm, interesting tautology: they think everyone else is as gullible as they are without realising how gullible the are.
IRL cheat codes if you will.
Perhaps they should try shouting “Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, right, left, right, B, A” at the judge next time.
Judge: “You missed B, A, Select, Start. Incantation failed. Guilty. Sentenced to play Russian Attack with only 3 lives.”
Select
Alright, no need to rub in the fact that you had friends as a kid
The thing is, there are “magic” words that they can “incant” to get more or less of what they want. The legal system is filled with obscure rules of evidence, arcane procedures, hidden precedents, and so on.
Trump is a high-profile defendant with lawyers who are presumably expensive, but he ended up with a bench trial rather than the jury trial he wanted because his lawyers forgot to / didn’t know to request a jury trial. Alina Habba is a lawyer who knows a lot of the “magic incantations”. But, according to lawyers watching the trial, she’s pretty much incompetent. She’s using the wrong legal incantations, or missing the opportunity to use the right ones. But, trial watchers who aren’t lawyers will watch it and not know what it is she’s doing wrong.
Add to that the idea that what the sovereign citizens want seems reasonable to them. Like, why should you need a license if you’re a safe driver? If you’re not a safe driver, then arrest you for that.
Since this idea seems reasonable to them, it makes sense to them that if you can use the right legal incantation, you can get the “fair” result. The underlying premise of the sovereign citizen movement seems to be that you can get a “fair” result at trial if you know the magic words. Fundamentally, that means that they believe in the fairness of the legal system (you just have to know the magic words).
Now, most people know how ridiculous that is. The legal system has never been fair. We’re all subject to laws we never agreed to. Laws are often enforced in unfair ways. We know that it’s not “magic incantations”, but skilled lawyers finding and using loopholes in the laws. And, lobbyists bribing lawmakers to insert loopholes for their rich clients.
But, who are sovereign citizens? They’re almost always white, male, blue-collar, over 50, etc. The system used to be slanted in their favour. So, now, when they’re on a more even footing with other people it all feels so unfair.
So a special appearance is a thing. Normally, if you appear in a case, you are consenting to the courts personal and subject matter jurisdiction. But what if you believe the Court lacks jurisdiction and you want to point that out and make arguments on it instead of blowing off the court date and being defaulted? That’s a special appearance.
Nornally it’s used for personal jurisdiction issues, because subject matter jurisdiction usually isn’t in dispute. Personal jurisdiction an be waived, but subject matter jurisdiction not only cannot be waived, it can be challenged any time and the court itself has a continuing duty to make sure its subject matter jurisdiction is not lost such as by dismissals or withdrawals of certain parts of the action.
In this case though, the statute charged was a criminal statute and they were in criminal court. There very clearly is subject matter jurisdiction.
Here’s the magical part.
It takes much more effort to correct bullshit than it does to make it up, unfortunately.
I do appreciate your explanation though.
What would be an example of a special case where the court lacks personal jurisdiction?
Personal jurisdiction is when someone has enough contacts with a state to make having the lawsuit in that state fair. So you can be sued for causing a traffic accident in a state while only traveling through a state. But you shouldn’t be sued in a state that you have never visited and the conduct at the heart of the lawsuit is unrelated to your conduct in the state. Example: someone tries to sue you for defamation in Oklahoma (because that’s where they live) for a comment you posted on Lemmy. Unless you live, work, or have property in Oklahoma, it wouldn’t be fair to make you travel all the way to Oklahoma to defend a lawsuit.
Thank you for the detailed explanation, that makes sense!
They’re wrong but at least they actually mean it when they say fuck the system
I mean, their bullshit isn’t worse than the system’s bullshit. The only difference is the system’s bullshit is actually real, with life-destroying consequences, as the top post on this site testifies today.
Would you care to LINK TO the post in question, or just have us guess what was popular the minute you wrote your reply?
The system’s bullshit only seems more real because there are people who will punish us for not going along with it
if you want to be left alone, go live in a shack out in the desert… otherwise learn what it takes to be a team player here, Jethro… we’re all in this together, even that mean old judge… it really ain’t that hard or pernicious… your precious knees will be okay, son…
Being left alone is not an option.
Yes, it is.
But most are not willing to completely leave the society that supports them.
They want all the benefits of living in a modern nation while ignoring all the laws that make a modern nation actually function.
There is always the need to pay tax on land you own or risk some government agency kicking you off the land you are on when they find your place. However, you definitely can separate yourself from society as you stated. It’s a hard fucking life you are looking at though.
And by definition, the people who succeeded at leaving civilization aren’t updating the bros on Facebook or getting pulled over on city streets.
That would make the ones we get to see anything about… the failures!
From what I have seen, as my family has some personal connections to people like this, they seem to be either very well educated, highly skilled, people who have deep trauma from war (military friends), felt they could no longer live in normal society, and knew they had the skills to do this. So they went out there.
Others were people who sort of always just felt “the call of the wild” so-to-speak. They grew up learning what they would need to know, working on those skills, and pushing their envelope until they felt they had established the capacity to make the move both in regards to the skills to do it, and the financial position to start it off. These people are often very intelligent, driven, and interesting people. They usually have spouses and sometimes kids.
Then there are the people like this. Originally most of these people were very mentally ill. Various paranoia disorders, or illnesses that also include paranoia. However, over the past ~30 years, there has been a gradual increase in people who are just naive, disaffected, people with poor critical thought skills. These people generally fell down some rabbit hole and found a community that accepts them. Unfortunately this community is… well, this stuff. They say that in the last decade it has exploded though. They worry that their remote homesteads will be surrounded by neighbors, shit neighbors, and the success rate for these people is like 1%, if that. It was always low, and even people who succeeded often would move back into society when they started to get old, but now it’s almost guaranteed to fail. However they seem to be sustaining, as a group, and it bothers them.
The smallest group are people with lots of money, who get on the fad waves of this stuff when it spikes in popularity. This often happens when a successful TV show comes out, or there is a spike in these movements online. These people show up in $70k trucks with trailers carrying $100k in tools. Over the next few months there is an explosion of activity as contractors come in and out setting up a luxury life far out in the woods. These people will do a few hours of something here and there, declare all they accomplished, by themselves, with grit alone. Then get bored way out in the middle of nowhere and move back to a metropolitan area.
Yeah, that division makes sense to me. The people that really want to, do, and the people who just need something to talk about, talk.
Where on earth can you go where you’re not subject to the laws of a government?
The open ocean.
There are thousands of uninhabited island around the world.
Sealand.
None of these are easy options but for people who want to be out from under the yoke of government it will be a small price to pay for total freedom.
Name an island that isn’t owned by a country.
Sealand is a joke. The guy who “owns” it doesn’t even live there. When there was a fire there they had to rely on a Royal Air Force helicopter to rescue someone and take them to a British hospital. The fires were put out by local (British) fire tugs. If the British had cared at any point they would have retaken their lost territory.
Wouldn’t the “natural man” be the prosecutor?
Does this sub post anything that ISN’T sovereign citizens?
I keep seeing it pop up with this one specific subset of insane people. It’s always the same old shit. It’s not interesting. Posts from last week see all the same stuff…
Shouldn’t this sub be called “SovCitAreRetarded” or something similar instead?
7 month old account that has created zero posts but it upset with what others have posted. (nothing wrong with just commenting if that is your thing but also complaining about the content others provide? Not so much)
Twp Options:
Post the content you want to see.
Block the community.
Problem solved.
Block the community.
done
Problem solved…
Classic end comment.
Thank you
Agreed. You guys get to keep your echo chamber and I get to never ever see it! win-win.
You’re doing us a favor by going away. Bye.
deleted by creator
lol you hurt yourself to spite them.
My brother stopped taking meds because the office manager at the doctor office was mean. You sound like him.
Look in the mirror sometime. Vitriol and hatred doesn’t make you a better person.
There’s a pretty obvious moral perspective about a community which exists to ridicule people who have mental health issues and honestly odds are a lot of the content here comes from that kind of population. I’d rather see someone get help than be part of the group ready to lynch them for being odd. I do know I can make no positive impact on a community that is immediately negative on this one though.
Good luck.
LOL you came in to shame me for mentioning my brother and then go off on how we shouldn’t judge. so weird.
We’ve been over this in other posts, but everyone here is quite enjoying these and have encouraged OP to continue regaling us with the sovcit nonsense.
You’re welcome to post other stuff if you want to add more content in.
