It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.
It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
I’ve read the whole report, that’s a short summary created by the UN investigators. Basic TL;DR of the whole situation:
That’s the short version. Various people have seized on point #2 or point #3 to claim that point #1 didn’t happen, but it did.
Also, I think that some people on Lemmy love bringing this up, because it winds up painting anyone who cares about the truth into the “pro-Israel” side of the debate, and then they can call them a Zionist.
Anyway, yes, the people who did October 7th definitely raped a lot of people. It doesn’t mean Israel should be committing a genocide. If it helps clarify things, the Israeli government has been facilitating aid for Hamas for years because they love having things like October 7th happen and give them excuses, and they love when Hamas rapes people or takes hostages, for the same reason. They wish it would happen every day, and so then they could talk about it and pretend even harder that shooting little kids in the groin or starving entire families to death is totally justified.
Can you specifically cite this? Specifically, I don’t see anything in the report that is as definitive as “was widespread”. The actual words I see in their report is:
edit: here’s a link to the actual report
From the official report, this is based on patterns that are described as ‘partially or fully naked victims’, but they specifically say that they cannot verify specific instances beyond this type of “circumstantial” evidence or eyewitness testimony. They even say:
Considering that these reports are often cited as justification for various war crimes and acts of genocide, it’s extremely important to be precise with language and delineate what is definitively known vs what is assumed.
This is the report:
https://news.un.org/en/sites/news.un.org.en/files/atoms/files/Mission_report_of_SRSG_SVC_to_Israel-oWB_29Jan_14_feb_2024.pdf
I have absolutely no interest in letting you bait me into an argument where, by correcting you factually, I’m taking Israel’s side so that people can make one of those 200-comment threads about me and what a big pro-Israel piece of shit I am. That’s the report.
That is the exact same report I just linked to you.
I’m not baiting you, but I would like you to substantiate your claim that I’m increasingly suspecting is willfully incorrect.
edit: it’s fine if you simply misspoke. If there’s something more definitive than I’m seeing that’s fine too, I just want the record to be set straight
You know what? Sure.
58. Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by
eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including
gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible
information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape
and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of
rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described
seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the
waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their
hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles.
60. There are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred on and around
Road 232. Credible information based on corroborating witness accounts describes an incident
involving the rape of two women. The mission team received other accounts of rape, including
gang rape, which could not be verified during the time provided and would require further
investigation. Along this road, several bodies were found with genital injuries, along with
injuries to other body parts. Discernible patterns of genital mutilation could not be verified at this
time but warrant future investigation. Many bodies along Road 232 also suffered destructive
burn damage and conclusions as to conflict-related sexual violence (including genital mutilation)
related to these incidents could not be drawn. The mission team was also able to ascertain that
multiple bodies of women and a few men were found totally or partially naked or with their
clothes torn, including some bound and/or attached to structures, which – though circumstantial
– may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence.
It then goes kibbutz by kibbutz, detailing what was or wasn’t found in each location and the limits of what they were able to conclude, including debunking what seems to me like a pretty clear pattern of certain fabricated accounts, in sections 62 through 67.
71. The mission team reviewed incidents of alleged sexual violence related to hostages in
Gaza. Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and
convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel,
inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time
in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing.
They also visited the West Bank, and made sure to make it clear that Israel is also committing inhuman treatmentt of Palestinians including sexual violence. I think there was a whole separate report or something that expanded on that to put it in context, this one just briefly touches on it.
Overall:
84. Overall, based on the totality of information gathered from multiple and independent
sources at the different locations, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related
sexual violence occurred at several locations across the Gaza periphery, including in the form of
rape and gang rape, during the 7 October 2023 attacks. Credible circumstantial information,
which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation,
sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered.
85. With regards to the hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information
that some hostages taken to Gaza have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual
violence and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.
86. The mission team was unable to establish the prevalence of sexual violence and
concludes that the overall magnitude, scope, and specific attribution of these violations would
require a fully-fledged investigation. A comprehensive investigation would enable the
information base to be expanded in locations which the mission team was not able to visit and to
build the required trust with survivors/victims of conflict-related sexual violence who may be
reluctant to come forward at this point.
If this is where you’ve sourced your claim then I should probably insist that you amend your original wording to something more appropriate. “There are reasonable grounds to believe there was sexual violence on october 7th”, instead of “Rape was widespread”
The only reason why someone might take your comment as ‘siding with Israel’ is that it’s careless, at-best. Most people will not be that generous. If you actually care about that representation, then you should be more careful.
You will not be seeing me start a drama thread about this.