A more precise picture of Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel has emerged from social security data, confirming the unprecedented scale of the violence but also challenging some initial testimonies.
All I can say is that both sides are wrong. Israel is an apartheid state. I was born Jewish but I do not have to side with Israel. I am far from an antisemite. Evil is evil.
So how can you so easily say both sides are wrong?
If a twelve year old child and thirty-five year old MMA fighter had beef because of the thirty-five year old’s actions, would you say both of them are wrong? Power dynamics should easily change optics here
So in your silly addition what does the MMA fighter get? Because Hamas does not have anything Israel also doesn’t have but Israel has very very much more than Hamas.
Well, it’s a silly addition because it is a silly analogy.
Obviously, an unarmed 12-year old cannot harm an MMA fighter at all. Whereas, Hamas clearly has the ability to hurt Israel. So, in your analogy, you have to give the 12-ywar old something that can severely hurt the MMA fighter. So, okay, maybe give the 12-year old a big can of pepper spray. The assault rifle and rocket launcher were more of an allusion to the weapons Hamas actually has.
If a twelve year old child and thirty-five year old MMA fighter had beef because of the thirty-five year old’s actions, would you say both of them are wrong?
Yes. The child is punching up does not justify the act of punching. The optics of the power dynamic simply mean the thirty-five year old the worst of the two because they’re punching down.
The child is only doing anything because of the adult.
In no situation is the child to blame, you can explain why what they did was wrong but if you don’t acknowledge the circumstances of how we got here you’re being all sorts of disingenuous.
The fact is Israel is wrong here and there’s nothing else to be said. Hamas is a force of desperation, why are they desperate?
In no situation is the child to blame, you can explain why what they did was wrong but if you don’t acknowledge the circumstances of how we got here you’re being all sorts of disingenuous.
I can acknowledge the circumstances that have created this… thing, and still blame the child because none of it absolves them from their actions. Like you said, what they did was wrong. Are we just supposed to ignore the fact that they did was wrong simply because next to them is a bigger asshole who is also doing wrong things on a greater scale? I don’t think so.
The fact is Israel is wrong here and there’s nothing else to be said. Hamas is a force of desperation, why are they desperate?
Israel is wrong here, but it doesn’t mean Hamas isn’t also wrong. Hamas is not a force of desperation. Hamas is just a militant group that uses the desperation of others to further their goals. The ones being desperate are Palestinians, they’ve done nothing wrong and they shouldn’t be blamed. Hamas can fuck right off alongside Israeli government.
Well then you are a fool and your logic is the same reason why people hate zero tolerance policies, because they’re stupid and weak and do nothing but protect the school (state) and continue an abusive system. Good job at being terrible at understanding context or anything complex.
Hamas literally wouldn’t exist if Israel didn’t act this way for decades and also DIDN’T FUND THEM. Did you know that? Israel funded them? Crazy.
You’re clueless.
If you go to a zoo and taunt the chimpanzee and he bites your finger off. You’d blame the chimp.
If you chose to strip down to your undies and skinny dip in sub zero temp and then died of hypothermia. You’d blame the weather.
If you saw radioactive material beside your morning coffee, drank it and died. You’d blame the fabric of the universe for letting radiation exist.
None of that makes sense. Hamas shouldn’t and wouldn’t be in power if not for Israel.
This is 100% on Israel and saying anything else just exposes your misunderstanding of power dyanmics.
Bro, that’s some fucking unhinged shit. You need to take a step back and reevaluate your life if you get so worked up over someone not 100% agreeing with you. We both agree Israel is the main culprit here. I think we both agree that Palestinians are the victims here. The only thing we don’t agree on is whether Hamas is right or wrong. I’m happy to agree to disagree because quite frankly I don’t give a shit about Hamas. Hamas is just pawn. If Hamas didn’t exist it would be the Islamic Jihad and if they didn’t exist it’d be some other militant group from Gaza that gets funded to be the black sheep.
Seems to me as if they are the only ones lifting a finger against the white supremacist settler-colonialist state that is threatening Palestinians with extermination.
sure, but if you look at literally ANYTHING ELSE about them you’ll see what we mean.
they’re a far right religious extremist organization that wants for Palestine what the Taliban is doing in Afghanistan. they don’t want to stop oppression, they just think it’s affecting the wrong people right now. that region well not get less shitty with them in power.
No, I know perfectly what you mean - your pro-Israeli propaganda is failing rapidly, and your only other option is to resort to “both-sideism.”
As long as Hamas is the only organization willing to actively oppose the white supremacist settler-colonialist state, their ideology is actually irrelevant because Hamas is the lesser evil here - you understand “lesser evil-ism,” right?
We can talk all day long why Israel funded Hamas or why the existence of the Taliban can be blamed on the US, but that doesn’t change anything - Hamas is the lesser evil here.
I’m not saying they’re the same. one is clearly worse. I’m saying it’s probably a bad idea to fund and legitimize an extremist religious government like them. in fact, your point about the US being to blame for the taliban is EXACTLY the point. this is the lesson we need to learn from that. we funded and armed them against what we saw as a greater threat and so we looked past the ideologies of those we supported. if we support and legitimize hamas we’ll be doing the exact same thing again.
I’m definitely not saying we should support Israel, I’m not saying we shouldn’t help Palestine, I’m just saying we need to be careful.
What “we” saw as a greater threat? Middle-eastern nationalism? Exactly how did middle-eastern people not living under the yoke of exploitative white supremacist empires threaten you?
and so we looked past the ideologies of those we supported.
Doesn’t look like it to me. Looks to me like the US’s “leaders” looked at these far-right fundamentalists and decided they were the perfect tool to kill off Arab nationalism and make the middle-east a safe space for the capitalists to loot and plunder with impunity. After all… the overtly nazi-loving fascism of the regimes the US sicced on Latin America was exactly what the US political establishment liked about them. It didn’t exactly turn out in the middle-east as they had planned… but I sure don’t see the military-industrial complex complaining about the current situation much.
if we support and legitimize hamas we’ll be doing the exact same thing again.
Why? Because Hamas has made it perfectly clear that they won’t be the puppets of the very people that sicced this white supremacist settler-colonial state on the Palestinians? That’s a mark in their favor - not one against them.
The choice is between a white supremacist settler state, and an Islamic supremacy group that wants to force everyone else to live under Sharia law. There is nothing good here, it’s all shit all the way down. Israel sucks ass and I completely understand why Hamas is lashing out against them. It is absolutely deserved.
I just don’t understand how you could root for Hamas, unless you are a conservative Muslim who wants to force everyone else to obey Islam. Root for the Palestinian people, but fuck Hamas and its cultists. They aren’t helping their nation at all. They are making things even worse for their own people.
It is completely possible to condemn the actions of Israel and Hamas at the same time. You don’t have to pick a side here, it’s not helping or changing anything except your mental health. Support the innocent people who are caught up in this hellish war, and curse the people perpetuating it.
The choice is between a white supremacist settler state, and an Islamic supremacy group that wants to force everyone else to live under Sharia law.
So it’s a choice between a genocidal white supremacist settler colonialist state and the other far-right fundamentalists that was funded and enabled by the genocidal white supremacist settler colonialist state?
Do tell, Clyde… which one of these represent the closest threat of genocide for Palestinians, eh?
I just don’t understand how you could root for Hamas,
It’s really simple - they are the only ones handing out AKs and RPGs.
They aren’t helping their nation at all. They are making things even worse for their own people.
So what would you prefer the Palestinians do? Simply accept their extermination quietly?
You don’t have to pick a side here
The luxury of not having to pick a side is the most privileged thing there is, Clyde.
Support the innocent people
How does your handwringing about innocent people matter in any of this? It’s colonialist warfare, genius - the genocidal people with all the tanks, aircraft and funding does not recognize innocence, only an other that must be exterminated.
You can support the liberation of the Palestinians and the end of the Israeli apartheid without having to support a terroristic and ultra religious regime who’s only solution to the problem is to “kill every jew”. I mean at least you can say that Hamas are more honest about what they want, but that is not an acceptable thing to support. If you support either regime you are advocating for genocide one way or another.
Hamas would have much more support from the Western world if they didnt target innocent civilians. They are completely justified in fighting for their future, the problem is that their way of going about it is deeply flawed. If you can’t see that then I guess I will just agree to disagree.
I also know that you are going to say, “but Clyde! Israel targets civilians too. They are starving them to death.” Yea I know. Fuck them. I wish somebody with some real power would actually do something about it, but the world sucks. Hamas is accomplishing nothing but accelerating the Palestinians genocide, though. They aren’t helping their people, they are making their lives worse.
I also don’t see how constantly going to bat for Hamas on social media is helping their cause in anyway. It just sounds like it would be draining to be the constant contrarian, but idk maybe you are just a bot.
You can support the liberation of the Palestinians
How does your liberal handwringing “support” Palestinian liberation, Clyde? “Thoughts & Prayers” does not magically turn into AKs and RPGs last time I checked.
Neither side should be proud of their actions here
Oh, I don’t know about that… Hamas’ attack has led to the first large-scale failure of the pro-Israeli propaganda machine in the west in four decades - the hysterically fascist reaction of the US political establishment to this propaganda failure is pretty self-evident.
I’d say Hamas have managed to achieve something quite momentous.
There are many Palestinian groups calling for peace through non-violence. They are doing plenty of stuff. Maybe it gives Hamas a good PR to look like they are the ones “doing something” while the rest of us Palestinians do what? stand there and hold their beers? Please.
I’m going to assume you’ll have no problem showing me how this vaunted “non-violence” has worked against genocidal imperialism in the past. Should be plenty of examples around, shouldn’t there?
It doesn’t work so well, but I don’t mean not using weapons… Just not having to force the civilian population to arm themselves. The UN needs peacekeeping forces to protect Palestinians, and I’m not opposed to any army taking on the IDF.
About half of Israeli Jews are of north African or middle eastern descent. That’s not a “one drop” thing; literally 25% of Israeli Jews were either born or have a father who was born in Asia (outside of Israel) or Africa. The second largest group of first or second generation immigrants are Moroccan Jews.
But in the US context, North Africans and Middle Easterners are considered white, at least as far as the census goes.
Edit: actually, doing a reverse image search, that’s a picture of the Israeli Supreme Court. I think the woman on the right might be Gila Canfy Steinitz, the “first female Mizrahi justice”. News articles aren’t more specific than that for where her family is from, but yeah - somewhere in the middle east or north africa.
TIL… liberals will enthusiastically support a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state as long as it pretends to be “liberal” and “modern.”
All I can say is that both sides are wrong. Israel is an apartheid state. I was born Jewish but I do not have to side with Israel. I am far from an antisemite. Evil is evil.
Israel and Hamas are wrong.
Palestinians are simply victims.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. They are victims and they are being kept that way.
So how can you so easily say both sides are wrong?
If a twelve year old child and thirty-five year old MMA fighter had beef because of the thirty-five year old’s actions, would you say both of them are wrong? Power dynamics should easily change optics here
Well, it depends on whether the 12 year old has an assault rifle and a rocket launcher, doesn’t it.
So in your silly addition what does the MMA fighter get? Because Hamas does not have anything Israel also doesn’t have but Israel has very very much more than Hamas.
Well, it’s a silly addition because it is a silly analogy.
Obviously, an unarmed 12-year old cannot harm an MMA fighter at all. Whereas, Hamas clearly has the ability to hurt Israel. So, in your analogy, you have to give the 12-ywar old something that can severely hurt the MMA fighter. So, okay, maybe give the 12-year old a big can of pepper spray. The assault rifle and rocket launcher were more of an allusion to the weapons Hamas actually has.
They can hurt Israelis, but they can’t meaningfully hurt the Israeli state.
Which is why I conceded a downgrade in the 12 year old’s arsenal to a can of pepper spray.
Yes. The child is punching up does not justify the act of punching. The optics of the power dynamic simply mean the thirty-five year old the worst of the two because they’re punching down.
The child is only doing anything because of the adult.
In no situation is the child to blame, you can explain why what they did was wrong but if you don’t acknowledge the circumstances of how we got here you’re being all sorts of disingenuous.
The fact is Israel is wrong here and there’s nothing else to be said. Hamas is a force of desperation, why are they desperate?
I can acknowledge the circumstances that have created this… thing, and still blame the child because none of it absolves them from their actions. Like you said, what they did was wrong. Are we just supposed to ignore the fact that they did was wrong simply because next to them is a bigger asshole who is also doing wrong things on a greater scale? I don’t think so.
Israel is wrong here, but it doesn’t mean Hamas isn’t also wrong. Hamas is not a force of desperation. Hamas is just a militant group that uses the desperation of others to further their goals. The ones being desperate are Palestinians, they’ve done nothing wrong and they shouldn’t be blamed. Hamas can fuck right off alongside Israeli government.
Well then you are a fool and your logic is the same reason why people hate zero tolerance policies, because they’re stupid and weak and do nothing but protect the school (state) and continue an abusive system. Good job at being terrible at understanding context or anything complex.
Hamas literally wouldn’t exist if Israel didn’t act this way for decades and also DIDN’T FUND THEM. Did you know that? Israel funded them? Crazy.
You’re clueless.
If you go to a zoo and taunt the chimpanzee and he bites your finger off. You’d blame the chimp.
If you chose to strip down to your undies and skinny dip in sub zero temp and then died of hypothermia. You’d blame the weather.
If you saw radioactive material beside your morning coffee, drank it and died. You’d blame the fabric of the universe for letting radiation exist.
None of that makes sense. Hamas shouldn’t and wouldn’t be in power if not for Israel.
This is 100% on Israel and saying anything else just exposes your misunderstanding of power dyanmics.
Bro, that’s some fucking unhinged shit. You need to take a step back and reevaluate your life if you get so worked up over someone not 100% agreeing with you. We both agree Israel is the main culprit here. I think we both agree that Palestinians are the victims here. The only thing we don’t agree on is whether Hamas is right or wrong. I’m happy to agree to disagree because quite frankly I don’t give a shit about Hamas. Hamas is just pawn. If Hamas didn’t exist it would be the Islamic Jihad and if they didn’t exist it’d be some other militant group from Gaza that gets funded to be the black sheep.
Hamas is wrong?
Seems to me as if they are the only ones lifting a finger against the white supremacist settler-colonialist state that is threatening Palestinians with extermination.
sure, but if you look at literally ANYTHING ELSE about them you’ll see what we mean.
they’re a far right religious extremist organization that wants for Palestine what the Taliban is doing in Afghanistan. they don’t want to stop oppression, they just think it’s affecting the wrong people right now. that region well not get less shitty with them in power.
No, I know perfectly what you mean - your pro-Israeli propaganda is failing rapidly, and your only other option is to resort to “both-sideism.”
As long as Hamas is the only organization willing to actively oppose the white supremacist settler-colonialist state, their ideology is actually irrelevant because Hamas is the lesser evil here - you understand “lesser evil-ism,” right?
We can talk all day long why Israel funded Hamas or why the existence of the Taliban can be blamed on the US, but that doesn’t change anything - Hamas is the lesser evil here.
I’m not saying they’re the same. one is clearly worse. I’m saying it’s probably a bad idea to fund and legitimize an extremist religious government like them. in fact, your point about the US being to blame for the taliban is EXACTLY the point. this is the lesson we need to learn from that. we funded and armed them against what we saw as a greater threat and so we looked past the ideologies of those we supported. if we support and legitimize hamas we’ll be doing the exact same thing again.
I’m definitely not saying we should support Israel, I’m not saying we shouldn’t help Palestine, I’m just saying we need to be careful.
What “we” saw as a greater threat? Middle-eastern nationalism? Exactly how did middle-eastern people not living under the yoke of exploitative white supremacist empires threaten you?
Doesn’t look like it to me. Looks to me like the US’s “leaders” looked at these far-right fundamentalists and decided they were the perfect tool to kill off Arab nationalism and make the middle-east a safe space for the capitalists to loot and plunder with impunity. After all… the overtly nazi-loving fascism of the regimes the US sicced on Latin America was exactly what the US political establishment liked about them. It didn’t exactly turn out in the middle-east as they had planned… but I sure don’t see the military-industrial complex complaining about the current situation much.
Why? Because Hamas has made it perfectly clear that they won’t be the puppets of the very people that sicced this white supremacist settler-colonial state on the Palestinians? That’s a mark in their favor - not one against them.
In a “lessr evil-ism” scenario it seems pretty clear to me that both are wrong lol.
Please tell me how Nelson Mandela and the ANC were evil
The choice is between a white supremacist settler state, and an Islamic supremacy group that wants to force everyone else to live under Sharia law. There is nothing good here, it’s all shit all the way down. Israel sucks ass and I completely understand why Hamas is lashing out against them. It is absolutely deserved.
I just don’t understand how you could root for Hamas, unless you are a conservative Muslim who wants to force everyone else to obey Islam. Root for the Palestinian people, but fuck Hamas and its cultists. They aren’t helping their nation at all. They are making things even worse for their own people.
It is completely possible to condemn the actions of Israel and Hamas at the same time. You don’t have to pick a side here, it’s not helping or changing anything except your mental health. Support the innocent people who are caught up in this hellish war, and curse the people perpetuating it.
So it’s a choice between a genocidal white supremacist settler colonialist state and the other far-right fundamentalists that was funded and enabled by the genocidal white supremacist settler colonialist state?
Do tell, Clyde… which one of these represent the closest threat of genocide for Palestinians, eh?
It’s really simple - they are the only ones handing out AKs and RPGs.
So what would you prefer the Palestinians do? Simply accept their extermination quietly?
The luxury of not having to pick a side is the most privileged thing there is, Clyde.
How does your handwringing about innocent people matter in any of this? It’s colonialist warfare, genius - the genocidal people with all the tanks, aircraft and funding does not recognize innocence, only an other that must be exterminated.
You can support the liberation of the Palestinians and the end of the Israeli apartheid without having to support a terroristic and ultra religious regime who’s only solution to the problem is to “kill every jew”. I mean at least you can say that Hamas are more honest about what they want, but that is not an acceptable thing to support. If you support either regime you are advocating for genocide one way or another.
Hamas would have much more support from the Western world if they didnt target innocent civilians. They are completely justified in fighting for their future, the problem is that their way of going about it is deeply flawed. If you can’t see that then I guess I will just agree to disagree.
I also know that you are going to say, “but Clyde! Israel targets civilians too. They are starving them to death.” Yea I know. Fuck them. I wish somebody with some real power would actually do something about it, but the world sucks. Hamas is accomplishing nothing but accelerating the Palestinians genocide, though. They aren’t helping their people, they are making their lives worse.
I also don’t see how constantly going to bat for Hamas on social media is helping their cause in anyway. It just sounds like it would be draining to be the constant contrarian, but idk maybe you are just a bot.
How does your liberal handwringing “support” Palestinian liberation, Clyde? “Thoughts & Prayers” does not magically turn into AKs and RPGs last time I checked.
Really? Is this what you are referring to?
It’s really funny to me that you think the west has ever cared about innocent civilians.
If it wasn’t for Hamas you wouldn’t even have noticed the Palestinian genocide.
Yes.
Hamas are right wing religious ethno-nationalists who haven’t even allowed an election in 20 years.
There’s a reason Netanyahu and other far-right Israelis keep propping up Hamas and weakening the PLO.
Yeah, I remember the PLO - people just like you were calling them “terrorists” back in the 70s and 80s, too.
Anyone that resists white supremacism and colonialism must be a “terrorist” - isn’t that so?
Have I used the word terrorist once?
Stop making up strawmen to fight.
Oh, you don’t have to - there’s nothing about your “moderate” politics that aren’t predictable. Nothing new about it, either.
Oh no the right winger is calling me moderate for not supporting fascists.
Oh no the right-winger is pretending not to be a right-winger.
Why do right-wingers not like being called right-wingers, eh?
Please explain.
2 wrongs don’t make a right. Neither side should be proud of their actions here
Oh, I don’t know about that… Hamas’ attack has led to the first large-scale failure of the pro-Israeli propaganda machine in the west in four decades - the hysterically fascist reaction of the US political establishment to this propaganda failure is pretty self-evident.
I’d say Hamas have managed to achieve something quite momentous.
So you believe the violence should continue?
Do you think a white supremacist settler-colonialist state will dismantle itself because I believe it “should?”
If yes… then the answer is no.
There are many Palestinian groups calling for peace through non-violence. They are doing plenty of stuff. Maybe it gives Hamas a good PR to look like they are the ones “doing something” while the rest of us Palestinians do what? stand there and hold their beers? Please.
I’m going to assume you’ll have no problem showing me how this vaunted “non-violence” has worked against genocidal imperialism in the past. Should be plenty of examples around, shouldn’t there?
It doesn’t work so well, but I don’t mean not using weapons… Just not having to force the civilian population to arm themselves. The UN needs peacekeeping forces to protect Palestinians, and I’m not opposed to any army taking on the IDF.
The side resisting the genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state is far less wrong.
Most Israelis aren’t white.
Yeah… Israel’s political institutions are paragons of racial diversity.
I see several non white middle easterners in that picture.
You want to point out the “non white middle easterners” in the picture? You know… for those of us who doesn’t work on the “one-drop rule.”
About half of Israeli Jews are of north African or middle eastern descent. That’s not a “one drop” thing; literally 25% of Israeli Jews were either born or have a father who was born in Asia (outside of Israel) or Africa. The second largest group of first or second generation immigrants are Moroccan Jews.
But in the US context, North Africans and Middle Easterners are considered white, at least as far as the census goes.
I’m guessing they all just coincidentally happen to be off sick every time people take pictures inside the Knesset, huh?
Do tell… does that perhaps explain why Israel’s economic and political structures seem to be dominated by European Jewish people?
If you saw a picture of this guy in the knesset, would you visually recognize that his family is Moroccan? Does this former deputy prime minister look European to you despite having been born in Iraq?. Here’s another Israeli politician who was literally born in Baghdad.
As an American, these people would very clearly be considered white. Honestly, the prime minister of Lebanon and the head of Fatah also code as white to me.
Edit: actually, doing a reverse image search, that’s a picture of the Israeli Supreme Court. I think the woman on the right might be Gila Canfy Steinitz, the “first female Mizrahi justice”. News articles aren’t more specific than that for where her family is from, but yeah - somewhere in the middle east or north africa.
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TIL… liberals will happily support a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state as long as it pretends to be “liberal” and “modern.”
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TIL… liberals will enthusiastically support a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state as long as it pretends to be “liberal” and “modern.”
Hamas definitely isn’t in the wrong anymore. No rape, no decapitation, extremely targeted attacks against military.
These new numbers make Hamas look like angels.
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The supernova festival was completely unplanned. It was literally not even supposed to be there as it’s permit ran out a day ago.
Furthermore it’s still rather unclear how many people Hamas actually killed there the IDF helicopter mowed down a lot of people there.
Those people are included in the numbers already btw. So likely a lot of IDF at the festival too
Your comment is as wrong as two left shoes. Ain’t nothing right about it.