All I can say is that both sides are wrong. Israel is an apartheid state. I was born Jewish but I do not have to side with Israel. I am far from an antisemite. Evil is evil.
Israel and Hamas are wrong.
Palestinians are simply victims.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. They are victims and they are being kept that way.
So how can you so easily say both sides are wrong?
If a twelve year old child and thirty-five year old MMA fighter had beef because of the thirty-five year old’s actions, would you say both of them are wrong? Power dynamics should easily change optics here
Well, it depends on whether the 12 year old has an assault rifle and a rocket launcher, doesn’t it.
So in your silly addition what does the MMA fighter get? Because Hamas does not have anything Israel also doesn’t have but Israel has very very much more than Hamas.
Well, it’s a silly addition because it is a silly analogy.
Obviously, an unarmed 12-year old cannot harm an MMA fighter at all. Whereas, Hamas clearly has the ability to hurt Israel. So, in your analogy, you have to give the 12-ywar old something that can severely hurt the MMA fighter. So, okay, maybe give the 12-year old a big can of pepper spray. The assault rifle and rocket launcher were more of an allusion to the weapons Hamas actually has.
Whereas, Hamas clearly has the ability to hurt Israel.
They can hurt Israelis, but they can’t meaningfully hurt the Israeli state.
If a twelve year old child and thirty-five year old MMA fighter had beef because of the thirty-five year old’s actions, would you say both of them are wrong?
Yes. The child is punching up does not justify the act of punching. The optics of the power dynamic simply mean the thirty-five year old the worst of the two because they’re punching down.
The child is only doing anything because of the adult.
In no situation is the child to blame, you can explain why what they did was wrong but if you don’t acknowledge the circumstances of how we got here you’re being all sorts of disingenuous.
The fact is Israel is wrong here and there’s nothing else to be said. Hamas is a force of desperation, why are they desperate?
In no situation is the child to blame, you can explain why what they did was wrong but if you don’t acknowledge the circumstances of how we got here you’re being all sorts of disingenuous.
I can acknowledge the circumstances that have created this… thing, and still blame the child because none of it absolves them from their actions. Like you said, what they did was wrong. Are we just supposed to ignore the fact that they did was wrong simply because next to them is a bigger asshole who is also doing wrong things on a greater scale? I don’t think so.
The fact is Israel is wrong here and there’s nothing else to be said. Hamas is a force of desperation, why are they desperate?
Israel is wrong here, but it doesn’t mean Hamas isn’t also wrong. Hamas is not a force of desperation. Hamas is just a militant group that uses the desperation of others to further their goals. The ones being desperate are Palestinians, they’ve done nothing wrong and they shouldn’t be blamed. Hamas can fuck right off alongside Israeli government.
Well then you are a fool and your logic is the same reason why people hate zero tolerance policies, because they’re stupid and weak and do nothing but protect the school (state) and continue an abusive system. Good job at being terrible at understanding context or anything complex.
Hamas literally wouldn’t exist if Israel didn’t act this way for decades and also DIDN’T FUND THEM. Did you know that? Israel funded them? Crazy.
You’re clueless.
If you go to a zoo and taunt the chimpanzee and he bites your finger off. You’d blame the chimp.
If you chose to strip down to your undies and skinny dip in sub zero temp and then died of hypothermia. You’d blame the weather.
If you saw radioactive material beside your morning coffee, drank it and died. You’d blame the fabric of the universe for letting radiation exist.
None of that makes sense. Hamas shouldn’t and wouldn’t be in power if not for Israel.
This is 100% on Israel and saying anything else just exposes your misunderstanding of power dyanmics.
Hamas is wrong?
Seems to me as if they are the only ones lifting a finger against the white supremacist settler-colonialist state that is threatening Palestinians with extermination.
sure, but if you look at literally ANYTHING ELSE about them you’ll see what we mean.
they’re a far right religious extremist organization that wants for Palestine what the Taliban is doing in Afghanistan. they don’t want to stop oppression, they just think it’s affecting the wrong people right now. that region well not get less shitty with them in power.
you’ll see what we mean.
No, I know perfectly what you mean - your pro-Israeli propaganda is failing rapidly, and your only other option is to resort to “both-sideism.”
As long as Hamas is the only organization willing to actively oppose the white supremacist settler-colonialist state, their ideology is actually irrelevant because Hamas is the lesser evil here - you understand “lesser evil-ism,” right?
We can talk all day long why Israel funded Hamas or why the existence of the Taliban can be blamed on the US, but that doesn’t change anything - Hamas is the lesser evil here.
I’m not saying they’re the same. one is clearly worse. I’m saying it’s probably a bad idea to fund and legitimize an extremist religious government like them. in fact, your point about the US being to blame for the taliban is EXACTLY the point. this is the lesson we need to learn from that. we funded and armed them against what we saw as a greater threat and so we looked past the ideologies of those we supported. if we support and legitimize hamas we’ll be doing the exact same thing again.
I’m definitely not saying we should support Israel, I’m not saying we shouldn’t help Palestine, I’m just saying we need to be careful.
against what we saw as a greater threat
What “we” saw as a greater threat? Middle-eastern nationalism? Exactly how did middle-eastern people not living under the yoke of exploitative white supremacist empires threaten you?
and so we looked past the ideologies of those we supported.
Doesn’t look like it to me. Looks to me like the US’s “leaders” looked at these far-right fundamentalists and decided they were the perfect tool to kill off Arab nationalism and make the middle-east a safe space for the capitalists to loot and plunder with impunity. After all… the overtly nazi-loving fascism of the regimes the US sicced on Latin America was exactly what the US political establishment liked about them. It didn’t exactly turn out in the middle-east as they had planned… but I sure don’t see the military-industrial complex complaining about the current situation much.
if we support and legitimize hamas we’ll be doing the exact same thing again.
Why? Because Hamas has made it perfectly clear that they won’t be the puppets of the very people that sicced this white supremacist settler-colonial state on the Palestinians? That’s a mark in their favor - not one against them.
In a “lessr evil-ism” scenario it seems pretty clear to me that both are wrong lol.
Please tell me how Nelson Mandela and the ANC were evil
The choice is between a white supremacist settler state, and an Islamic supremacy group that wants to force everyone else to live under Sharia law. There is nothing good here, it’s all shit all the way down. Israel sucks ass and I completely understand why Hamas is lashing out against them. It is absolutely deserved.
I just don’t understand how you could root for Hamas, unless you are a conservative Muslim who wants to force everyone else to obey Islam. Root for the Palestinian people, but fuck Hamas and its cultists. They aren’t helping their nation at all. They are making things even worse for their own people.
It is completely possible to condemn the actions of Israel and Hamas at the same time. You don’t have to pick a side here, it’s not helping or changing anything except your mental health. Support the innocent people who are caught up in this hellish war, and curse the people perpetuating it.
The choice is between a white supremacist settler state, and an Islamic supremacy group that wants to force everyone else to live under Sharia law.
So it’s a choice between a genocidal white supremacist settler colonialist state and the other far-right fundamentalists that was funded and enabled by the genocidal white supremacist settler colonialist state?
Do tell, Clyde… which one of these represent the closest threat of genocide for Palestinians, eh?
I just don’t understand how you could root for Hamas,
It’s really simple - they are the only ones handing out AKs and RPGs.
They aren’t helping their nation at all. They are making things even worse for their own people.
So what would you prefer the Palestinians do? Simply accept their extermination quietly?
You don’t have to pick a side here
The luxury of not having to pick a side is the most privileged thing there is, Clyde.
Support the innocent people
How does your handwringing about innocent people matter in any of this? It’s colonialist warfare, genius - the genocidal people with all the tanks, aircraft and funding does not recognize innocence, only an other that must be exterminated.
You can support the liberation of the Palestinians and the end of the Israeli apartheid without having to support a terroristic and ultra religious regime who’s only solution to the problem is to “kill every jew”. I mean at least you can say that Hamas are more honest about what they want, but that is not an acceptable thing to support. If you support either regime you are advocating for genocide one way or another.
Hamas would have much more support from the Western world if they didnt target innocent civilians. They are completely justified in fighting for their future, the problem is that their way of going about it is deeply flawed. If you can’t see that then I guess I will just agree to disagree.
I also know that you are going to say, “but Clyde! Israel targets civilians too. They are starving them to death.” Yea I know. Fuck them. I wish somebody with some real power would actually do something about it, but the world sucks. Hamas is accomplishing nothing but accelerating the Palestinians genocide, though. They aren’t helping their people, they are making their lives worse.
I also don’t see how constantly going to bat for Hamas on social media is helping their cause in anyway. It just sounds like it would be draining to be the constant contrarian, but idk maybe you are just a bot.
Yes.
Hamas are right wing religious ethno-nationalists who haven’t even allowed an election in 20 years.
There’s a reason Netanyahu and other far-right Israelis keep propping up Hamas and weakening the PLO.
and weakening the PLO.
Yeah, I remember the PLO - people just like you were calling them “terrorists” back in the 70s and 80s, too.
Anyone that resists white supremacism and colonialism must be a “terrorist” - isn’t that so?
Have I used the word terrorist once?
Stop making up strawmen to fight.
Oh, you don’t have to - there’s nothing about your “moderate” politics that aren’t predictable. Nothing new about it, either.
Oh no the right winger is calling me moderate for not supporting fascists.
2 wrongs don’t make a right. Neither side should be proud of their actions here
Neither side should be proud of their actions here
Oh, I don’t know about that… Hamas’ attack has led to the first large-scale failure of the pro-Israeli propaganda machine in the west in four decades - the hysterically fascist reaction of the US political establishment to this propaganda failure is pretty self-evident.
I’d say Hamas have managed to achieve something quite momentous.
So you believe the violence should continue?
Do you think a white supremacist settler-colonialist state will dismantle itself because I believe it “should?”
If yes… then the answer is no.
There are many Palestinian groups calling for peace through non-violence. They are doing plenty of stuff. Maybe it gives Hamas a good PR to look like they are the ones “doing something” while the rest of us Palestinians do what? stand there and hold their beers? Please.
groups calling for peace through non-violence.
I’m going to assume you’ll have no problem showing me how this vaunted “non-violence” has worked against genocidal imperialism in the past. Should be plenty of examples around, shouldn’t there?
It doesn’t work so well, but I don’t mean not using weapons… Just not having to force the civilian population to arm themselves. The UN needs peacekeeping forces to protect Palestinians, and I’m not opposed to any army taking on the IDF.
The side resisting the genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state is far less wrong.
Most Israelis aren’t white.
Yeah… Israel’s political institutions are paragons of racial diversity.
I see several non white middle easterners in that picture.
You want to point out the “non white middle easterners” in the picture? You know… for those of us who doesn’t work on the “one-drop rule.”
About half of Israeli Jews are of north African or middle eastern descent. That’s not a “one drop” thing; literally 25% of Israeli Jews were either born or have a father who was born in Asia (outside of Israel) or Africa. The second largest group of first or second generation immigrants are Moroccan Jews.
But in the US context, North Africans and Middle Easterners are considered white, at least as far as the census goes.
are of north African or middle eastern descent.
I’m guessing they all just coincidentally happen to be off sick every time people take pictures inside the Knesset, huh?
Do tell… does that perhaps explain why Israel’s economic and political structures seem to be dominated by European Jewish people?
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TIL… liberals will happily support a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state as long as it pretends to be “liberal” and “modern.”
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TIL… liberals will enthusiastically support a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state as long as it pretends to be “liberal” and “modern.”
Hamas definitely isn’t in the wrong anymore. No rape, no decapitation, extremely targeted attacks against military.
These new numbers make Hamas look like angels.
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The supernova festival was completely unplanned. It was literally not even supposed to be there as it’s permit ran out a day ago.
Furthermore it’s still rather unclear how many people Hamas actually killed there the IDF helicopter mowed down a lot of people there.
Those people are included in the numbers already btw. So likely a lot of IDF at the festival too
Your comment is as wrong as two left shoes. Ain’t nothing right about it.
They claimed 1,300 were killed, and that number turns out to be wrong…
…meanwhile they’ve killed over 13,000 Palestinians. It’s not an eye for an eye, it’s genocidal murder.
It’s over 18,000 Palestinians now.
And that’s most likely an undercount. Those are the official numbers from the health department, and they only count casualties that go through their system. They don’t know what’s happening in IDF occupied areas, or how many bodies are still under rubble that nobody is able to dig out.
Don’t include Hamas terrorists with Palestinian civil casualties.
They are two separate things, which are counted separately.
Don’t include Hamas terrorists with Palestinian civil casualties.
Do tell… does the IDF follow Vietnam rules? Ie, does a Palestinian child only count as “half-a-terrorist” to the genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state?
You still didn’t provide the correct numbers.
I’ll take that as a yes.
All I’m seeing here is liberals demonstrating how willing they are to overlook white supremacism as long as it isn’t standing on their own doorsteps and wearing a red hat - and it doesn’t seem to exclude genocide apologetics.
I guess that settles the question of whether the US is a fundamentally white supremacist state once and for all, huh?
The Israeli estimates, with the assumption ALL men above 18 are “combatants”, is that it’s 61% civilian casualties. The real number is probably 90%+ civilian deaths because there’s no meaningful targeting at all, there’s endless reports of them shooting at anything that moves.
IDF definitely murdered a bunch of civilians with helicopter spray and pray.
I’ve seen mention of this a couple times but don’t really know what people are referring to though I follow bourgeois and proletarian international news media. Do you know a source you could point me to about this?
Second one is in Hebrew, you’ll have to use Google translate
Edit: here’s an archive link to the second article
1400 to 700 civilians.
Now lets invistigate why they are trying to hide how many the IDF killed of those 700.
I have seen two credible accounts so far: a tank killing 14 and another instance of 3 civilians allegedly being held hostage.
But I have seen credible accounts from witnesses indicating a lot of confused firing with no way to fully determine what the results were.
Note, though
Israel counts both soldiers killed in action and off-duty soldiers in its military casualties, and so these figures include, for example, some who died at the Supernova festival or while visiting their family in the south.
It’s a bit difficult to distinguish a burned body in a kibbutz as a civilian vs off duty military until there’s a forensic identification of its identity.
You guys don’t understand they were all decapitated babies and we totally have proof. It is just too bad to show you.
Oh… the US (and the rest of the so-called “west”) peddled hysterically hyperbolized propaganda to justify the genocidal actions of their favorite pet white supremacist settler-colonialist project?
Who coulda thunk it?
Murder and torture of unarmed elders, women and babit is purely heinous, no matter the scale.
The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.
So? Does it matter if it was 1400, 1300 or 1139? It’s mass murder anyway, and Hamas are still bastards for killing them. And Netanyahu is still a bastard for using it as a free pass on bombing Gaza. These numbers don’t change anything at all.
Can one imagine a rave party with a thousand+ of people, and then imagine them all dead? Or a european-like district with housing, schools, shops for 13k people - you can see them on Google Maps, they were pretty sweet in spite of israeli politics - all leveled down to the ground. It’s a rave party not unlike one happening near you, this neighborhood is not unlike yours. These people may not speak english, yet they share basic things with you, like, they could’ve liked the same songs, the same movies like you do, some of them could’ve even been trekkies. And now they are lost. They won’t have a child, they won’t share a funny story over drinks with friends, they won’t build that birdhouse their elderly parents asked for. They are dead, non-existent, and all work put into making them proper adults is lost. And whatever it’s a thousand, or a thousand of thosands, it’s too much to ignore. Every person shot or slayed there is too much to ignore. There should be a ceasefire agreement first, it needs to stop.
I know right, imagine if it had been over 15,000 innocent people that had had their homes destroyed and their family and friends killed over something they had nothing to do with.
and then imagine them all dead?
Did that happen?
Also while atrocities were committed on October 7th, AFAIK there was no mass murder. And if you’re wondering how so many people died then, there’s an unknown but significant number of IDF-inflicted casualties in those 1139.
I’m not sure what’s the definition of mass murder but advancing in a city/place and start killing indiscriminately sounds a lot like it.
Yes but I’m saying that didn’t happen to my knowledge. From what we know so far about the attack, the IDF response was far from careful not to harm civilians, and in some cases chose to actively kill hostages to get the Hamas soldiers who captured them.
Israel so far hasn’t done anything close to releasing the number of people who died to IDF fire, or just in the crossfire between Hamas and the IDF, and until they do that they have no grounds to claim Hamas committed mass murder.
~ 1/3 military kills is definitely not “indiscriminately killing”. These numbers change everything.
It’s not a mass murder anymore. Oct7 was a justified targeted retaliation.
67% civilian casualties is a universally abhorrent figure, and shows a complete disregard for the value of innocent human lives.
Also, mass murder is generally defined as the killing of 3 or more persons at a time. Not exactly a high bar.
67% civilian casualties is a universally abhorrent figure
Is it? I mean civilians getting killed is bad no matter the number, and I’m not denying Hamas soldiers committed war crimes, but for example in Iraq the US coalition’s percentage was 77%.
Because everyone is so happy that Iraq happened? Here, fixed:
77% civilian casualties is also a universally abhorrent figure
Yeah I’m not saying 67% civilians is a good number, only that it’s a normal number.
My man you better not start reading about American civilian casualty figures. And ESPECIALLY not about israel ones.
Also most israeli civilians are IDF reservists so they are in fact uncounted soldiers. The IDF just called up 300.000 “innocent civilians” to commit genocide in Gaza? lmao.
The best number is how little children were killed in compared to the total amount of people.
My man you better not start reading about American civilian casualty figures. And ESPECIALLY not about israel ones.
Let me guess, I would find more universally abhorrent figures? What exactly do you think “universally” means?
Also most israeli civilians are IDF reservists
Where the fuck did you get that from?
Do you think Netanyahu just summoned 300.000 reservists out of thin air to commit genocide in Gaza with?
Those “innocent israeli civilians” are now magically members of the IDF.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel
In contrary, only a small percentage of Palestinians are part of Hamas and they have no conscription in Gaza.
Justified retaliation, and an operation meant to get concessions out of Israel for Gazans. That’s why they took the hostages.
there was no mass murder
Go fuck yourself with a fork if 1139, or even 500 isn’t a mass murder in your dictionary, I don’t feel like I want to talk to you. You don’t help palestinians by downplaying what hamas bastards did to jews while enjoying golf courses in Quatar.
Fuck yourself first asshole they used this excuse to declare a genocide and it comes out Israeli leadership fucking funded Hamas and allowed this shit to happen.
Hamas sucks but everything they did has Israeli hands helping and now Israeli hands are committing genocide.
How fuckin stupid are you?
You’d go to excuse Hamas, won’t you?
Hamas sucks but …
Get. Lost. Already.
Yes i absolutely will excuse Hamas. They’re a rabid angry abused dog taunted and then their owner secretly unlocked the fence and cried “what a bad dog look what it did to me!”
Israel is the start and end of this Hamas is a pawn. Fuck off idiot.
You are honest about that. I’d give you that. It feels refreshing to find an opponent who stays by their ideals. Thinking you are terminally wrong, I respect you still being there.
Excuse Hamas for what?
Launching an attack on a white supremacist settler-colonialist state that has been waging war on Palestinians since 1949?
I think it is you that needs to get lost.
Killing a thousand of people is ok, right?
You know you can hate both Hamas and Israeli monsters?
Killing a thousand of people is ok, right?
Not keeping up with current events, are you?
Or are you just so desperate to cling to your pro-Israeli narrative that you will simply ignore them?
I literally responded to that in the very next sentence. Until the IDF counts the people their own fire killed, and the ones who died in the crossfire, both of which exist in significant numbers, we have no evidence Hamas did anything close to mass murder. Also that 1139 is counting the 373 security force people, which are legitimate military targets.
So ~800 civilians dead still, right?
You… just ignored everything I said except the numbers right?
No?
You mean these 800-something people died in a cross-fire? I feel like I don’t uderstand you.
The crossfire, reckless (sometimes deliberate when they were taken hostage) IDF fire and Hamas war crimes. These three categories all contain significant numbers of people, so until we know who killed how many and where there are no grounds to claim Hamas committed mass murder.
The exact number is only really relevant for historical purposes. Especially on this scale. At some point, a catastrophe like this really does become a statistic.
Large attacks like these cannot go unpunished, so the response would’ve been the same no matter the figure. Heck, even if it was a hundred people killed, that’s not something Israel could or should ignore.
And certainly, between the chaos, trauma and condition of some of the bodies, it’s obviously going to take a while to pin down an exact figure anyway.
Exactly, and they’re doing a fantastic job of punishing the children of Gaza, keep up the good work Israel! Soon there won’t be any children left.
Is the way Israel has been treating Palestinians something they should’ve ignored? Or do you reckon that’s why the attack occurred in the first place?
But let me guess, Hamas are terrorists and the IDF are well equipped soldiers so really Israel was just forced into this by evil people.
And before you reply with “I don’t condone yadda yadda ya…”, know that that’s exactly what you’re doing, that’s exactly what the media is doing, by always forgetting about where this started, and always pointing to the reaction of the people that are being deprived of everything and slowly eradicated.
What you’re insinuating here, if not bluntly stating it, is that Israel’s hand was forced, validating their reaction, and in the same breath saying that before this attack, all was well.
You can no longer claim that “this is not the way to go about it” after flat out condoning and supporting Israel’s reaction as it exposes your bias.
Wow, a sane take!? I’m surprised that this popped up between all the anti-israel propaganda here on Lemmy.
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