It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.

  • db0
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    They are not normally tankies

    What, in your opinion, makes us “tankies” from what you just said? Respect for the neopronouns, intolerance towards Genai-hater trolls, or mod actions towards someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users?

    Anarchists always had very similar critiques towards capitalism as Marxists. Where we differ is what we do about it, and these actions is what can label someone a “tankie”

    • PhilipTheBucket
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      2 days ago

      I didn’t say you were tankies, I actually said you were not. I just said something weird was going on with dbzer0. Your comment here, I say without really meaning any hostility by it, is more weird stuff.

      Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.

      Intolerance towards genAI-hater trolls was never the issue, it was random mod actions against people who were not genAI-hater trolls. And then pretending that anyone who got the random unwarranted mod action was probably a genAI-hater troll.

      Both of those are the dishonest framings that the people defending whatever weird decision love to use. And, no matter how often it’s pointed out to them that some other people disagree with their framing, they simply ignore it, as if the person hadn’t said anything at all, and repeat the framing that conveniently makes their answer the only possible answer. That is textbook tankie-instance behavior. It’s part of what makes them insufferable to try to talk with. Even if your politics are clearly not tankie.

      And, of course:

      someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users

      Aha!

      “One of our users.”

      That’s the root of the issue, to me. You’re starting to treat “your users” differently than other users.

      One of your users spent part of yesterday following me around and replying to me in a few different threads demanding that I take part in an argument I’d already addressed and then told them I wasn’t interested in continuing. Is that harassment? No, because it’s your users.

      There’s this massive thread accusing PugJesus of all kinds of stuff: That he’s pro-Israel, that he’s a terminally online weirdo loser, that he never backs up anything he says, that he bans anyone who criticizes Israel, that he’s transphobic and doesn’t respect people’s pronouns, that he’s a twat, and so on. That’s completely fine, because he’s a “lib.” He’s the enemy. We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified, it’s a big hateful groupthink that defines things in terms of enemies (and a crucial part is twisting things around so that someone can be defined as a horrifying enemy in some way, which is why they’re pretending he is pro-Israel) and in-groups. Why is that all okay? Because he’s not one of your users. He’s the out-group, he is a liberal apparently.

      In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action. If you pretend someone said something they didn’t say to stir up shit, you get mod action. Ada’s description from a different domain was actually pretty good: There are certain types of respect that are not “a reward for good behaviour.” They’re just what we need to do for each other to keep the community on the rails. On most of Lemmy, the mod action for violating that kind of respect is overtly one-sided; if you’re in the in-group, it’s allowed, if you’re aiming it towards the in-group, then you get mod action because it’s a crisis.

      Does that one-sided moderation, and officially badjacketing people as “Zionists” and genocide supporters and then going full-bore against them as a result, mean you’re tankies? Not in the literal sense, no. But you’re starting to act like the tankie instances, all of a sudden, when it seems to me like you used to be chill and sensible. You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking and moderating against anyone who had some different kind of politics, and mobbing up against them like Lord of the Flies. Now it seems like you are, and it happened (from my POV at least) all of a sudden out of nowhere, and it’s weird to me.

      (Yes, I know what badjacketing means. I placed it in the sentence the way I did to make a point.)

      • @AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world
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        91 day ago

        Multithread crashout with enough paragraphs typed to fill a novella. This level of drama might be peak Lemmy thought crime policing. Peak liberal vs tankie on a topic unrelated to it. This thread (an argument loadstone which was irresistible) and the time ya’ll have spent in is incredible. That’s just imo, of course.

        But keep going, I’m loving reading all this!

        • PhilipTheBucket
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          01 day ago

          It’s like drama in academia: It starts to become this titanic bitter struggle which causes people to lose their goddamned minds and fight to the ends of the earth, precisely because the stakes are so small.

          • @AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            Well fucking said!

            If I had more time and less depression, I’d start making YouTube videos breaking down this drama. Someone is gonna make a lot of money on that idea.

            • PhilipTheBucket
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              31 day ago

              I legit thought about sending Strange Æons a message summarizing some of the main drama. It might be too reddit-y for her to be into, but I agree. Bottom line, it’s a fuckin’ gold mine.

              • @AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world
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                11 day ago

                That’s a good idea, need someone Lemmy-brained like she’s Tumblr-brained tho. Those people are forged, the community might still be too young.

      • _cryptagion [he/him]
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        112 days ago

        Aha! “One of *our* users.”

        You said this like it’s some kind of gotcha. It isn’t. Of course we’re going to protect our communities and users above and before other communities and users. At the end of the day, the health and wellbeing of dbzer0 should always be prioritized over the wellbeing of other instances by the mods and admins of our instance. That’s their duty to our users. You’re welcome to complain about that as much as you want, but that’s always going to be how I operate, at least, and I doubt any of the other mods or admins feel all that differently.

        • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost
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          71 day ago

          Protecting users from being harassed is the same as admins being weird people like .ml, apparently.

          • @PugJesus@lemmy.world
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            37 hours ago

            My favorite part is where you yourself admitted that I only downvoted comments I disagreed with, and yet both you and the Dbzer0 admins counted that as ‘harassment’.

            Seven months of blatant slander, on the other hand, is just being a good comrade, according to dbzer0.

      • @PugJesus@lemmy.world
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        112 days ago

        that he’s a terminally online weirdo

        that he’s a twat,

        I mean tbf both of those are at least true

        • Eldritch
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          112 days ago

          Heh I would think the bigger insult here on the feddi is that any of us are normal or well adjusted.

      • Blaze (he/him)
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        92 days ago

        Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.

        That’s your framing of the situation.

        An alternative perspective is that the “pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures” is gender gatekeeping.
        Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.

        https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162

        We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified

        People brought justifications

        In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action

        Direct attacks are usually removed

        You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking

        I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments

        Cool! Now accuse him of caring way too much about politics, and getting in heated debates about it like a LOSER, speaking as you are from your lemmy.ml address. That’ll make perfect sense too.

        https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291493

        Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”

        • PhilipTheBucket
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          Good God. Okay, you asked for a response, here is it.

          An alternative perspective is that the “pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures” is gender gatekeeping. Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.

          Using unusual pronouns was never the issue. It’s insanely common on blahaj for people to use neopronouns, and nobody bats an eye, because it’s normal. Pretending that being trans is equivalent to being a dragon (along with things like encouraging other users to self-harm, because of course this person did, because they are a troll and trying to be cruel to trans people) was the issue.

          I cannot fathom how me repeating this for the nth time here is somehow going to make a difference, but whatever. You said something, I’ve replied. Can I go now?

          People brought justifications

          Fair enough, there were some things that people justified, I shouldn’t have said “nothing” I guess. My argument is that there was a ton of stuff that was not justified, and some of the criticism once we got down to actual events motte-and-baileyed its way back from “he is a Zionist who deletes any criticism of Israel and a transphobe” and into “he gets mad arguing about politics and I don’t like that”, and some of it was literal just random abuse and cursing at him, not connected to any type of event or behavior at all.

          Direct attacks are usually removed

          Direct attacks in some contexts are removed. In other contexts, they’re allowed. That was my point. I’m actually fine with either policy, broadly speaking, but starting to forbid mild attacks towards friends and allow wild, profane, fact-free attacks towards enemies is a bad road to start to go down. That was much more the core of my point.

          You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking

          I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments

          Pretending that PJ is pro-Israel is flagrantly dishonest. It’s also working very well. That’s a good example. Not sure what your complaint here is, I don’t really want to dig through the thread picking out stuff that’s objectively untrue, but that’s one example if you’re saying you don’t believe me about it.

          Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”

          I addressed this already, I never said people who care about politics are losers. I am a person that argues way too much on and off the internet about politics. My point was that for lemmy.ml to suddenly feel like caring about and arguing about politics on the internet makes someone a weirdo is just another example of the sort of tribal “it’s fine with I do it, but when you do it it is evidence you’re some kind of terrible thing” thinking that I am trying to call out.

          Satisfied? I’ve already talked about literally all of this, I’m not interested in going back and forth about it just without end. But sure, there’s your response if you want one.

          • Blaze (he/him)
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            119 minutes ago

            https://sopuli.xyz/post/30935971/18041817

            As said in the other comment, it’s good that you clarified the “loser comment”

            Beyond that, we discussed most of the stuff in the other comment

            Just to reiterate,

            It’s up to you. I think it would be good to have another !yptb community that’s not satire or a one person creation.

            You could potentially enforce more respectful discussions there.

        • @MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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          -12 days ago

          “He was (potentially) trolling, but if noone took the bait…”

          Ah yes, let’s just excuse the inciting actions and blame the targets of harassment!

          You are a victim blaming moron, and you’ve made it perfectly clear right there.

            • Diva (she/her)
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              622 hours ago

              People can use whatever pronouns they want and anyone pitching a fit about it are the ones who deserve scrutiny as far as I’m concerned.

              Drag always rubbed me the wrong way, always ready to jump right to calling people tankies without much interesting conversation to be had.

              If someone is trolling I’m going to ban them when they violate an actual rule, like telling people to kys, because anything else opens up the field for people like Pug to declare who is and isn’t trans based on if they like their pronoun choice.

      • db0
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        I disagree with your framing. I think you’re being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions. At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.

        And yes, we’re going to take action about harassment of our own users, that’s the duty of an instance admin. I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban. Literally the mildest of punishments ever, and you’re at the point of pondering what’s rotten in the whole instance and writing walls of text, over a short term “chill out” ban.

        • PhilipTheBucket
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          82 days ago

          I disagree with your framing. I think you’re being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions.

          I can’t count how many times someone on or off blahaj tried to explain that Dragonrider’s trolling, encouraging other users to suicide, things like that, were the core of the issue. If you really want to join Ada in pretending that there’s a whole Lemmy population that’s just frothing at the mouth to dictate to other people what pronouns they can and can’t use, and that was what got them heated up about Dragonrider and nothing about any of the other stuff, I won’t stop you. I started to dig up old messages to put together a timeline, but then I realized I don’t care and I think the issue is pretty clear enough already.

          At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.

          This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.

          I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban.

          Personally, I don’t care about the ban itself. I actually agree with you that PugJesus making a whole community to whine about how unfair it is is kind of childish. I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.

          • Blaze (he/him)
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            62 days ago

            This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.

            Any admins should act upon harassment of one of their users, especially if the admins of the harassers don’t.

            I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.

            Isn’t that the concept of !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com since its inception?

          • db0
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            42 days ago

            Honestly, I think calling what’s ongoing “bullying” is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.

            This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.

            I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks. Then I can point you to someone about to have a burnout.

            • PhilipTheBucket
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              62 days ago

              Honestly, I think calling what’s ongoing “bullying” is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.

              Quotes from the thread:

              The person in question is extremely rude and toxic. I have reached out to the LW admins regarding that he seems unfit to be moderating a dozen medium to larger communities. Unfortunately i didnt get any reply.

              I think he’s an obnoxious dickhead

              I remember his username and him being a twat

              He’s a genocide-supporting Zionist radlib

              a goddam stalker

              an angry turbolib who blames the left (and Eugene in particular, for some reason) for the pathetic failure of the corporate-c**k-sucking Democrats

              And so on. There’s plenty more, that’s just what I had patience to dig up.

              I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks.

              Those aren’t the only two options lol. I’m just saying that “Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!” isn’t the good justification that it sounds like, when you phrase it differently than I just did.

              • db0
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                32 days ago

                Quotes from the thread:

                Not sure which thread you mean, but If you think people expressing their low opinions about someone is “bullying”, then, well you haven’t experienced bullying. And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion? Like, this is a legit absurd argument path.

                Those aren’t the only two options lol. I’m just saying that “Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!”

                It’s easy to look right when fighting against strawmen.

                • PhilipTheBucket
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                  You just asked for examples of bullying, so I provided. What did you expect me to bring up, was someone sneaking through his window and punching him in the face? I’m not sure what other than personal insults could be meant by that. If it was bringing up examples of wrong things he did, then sure. Some people did that, some people lied about it (claiming he’d said one thing when he’d said the exact opposite), some people actively refused to provide any evidence but just threw insults at him and then peaced out. The first thing, I’d have no problem with, the others I feel like are worth worrying about at least a little bit.

                  And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion?

                  I want you to stop protecting the people you like from public opinion. I’m completely fine with everyone just being able to have their say, although maybe certain levels of personal abuse shouldn’t be tolerated. But it’s very clearly one-sided. The dbzer0 people have been describing downvoting as “abuse,” so yes, I would say aiming extensive cursing and personal insults at someone and accusing them of things they didn’t do can be “bullying,” or at least something that’s worthy of mods weighing in on it, like they would pounce instantly if someone said something about Sam Altman or something.

                  Edit: Actually, maybe a better way to explain it: Go back to every one of the quotes I listed about PugJesus. If people came into a dbzer0 thread and said the exact same types of things about Ada, would that be okay? Or would it be a problem that required mod / admin attention?

                  That’s what bugs me about it, it’s the blatant tribalism of it. You permabanned a trans person just recently because they tried (again, for the thousandth time) to explain what the issue was with Dragonrider, and you didn’t like that, so ban for “pissy.” They’re not in the club, so fuck them. Everyone got all up in arms about ban reason “tankie,” but you’re fine with comment removed for “shut the fuck up, liberal” (I actually 100% agree with removing that comment – my point is that the slurs are starting to be celebrated, and only go one way, and that’s not a good thing.)

                  One of your people has just recently invented a new slur (“slopper”) to use to attack people they disagree with as they are being banned. I have no idea the context or what it means, although I can guess.

                  You get the idea. I don’t want to go back and forth about extensively. I have no idea how much of this is you, or the admin team, or whoever. I actually think probably most of what I see as most worrying is not coming from the admin team. But the culture shift is alarming to me. It’s all about attack, slurs, new fun insults. We need to protect “our users” against downvotes. Other users, on other instances, who got rando-banned, well, fuck them, they’re not “ours,” so who cares.

                  You get the idea. Maybe not. Anyway, that’s what I think about it.

                  • db0
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                    91 day ago

                    Why yes, we do tolerate people badmouthing Ada, dessalines, nutomic, and even our own admins. Hell I’ve personally tolerated dozens of angry hexbears trying to bully myself in my own thread in my own comm. We do indeed walk the walk.

                    There’s no “tribalism” here, no matter how much you keep repeating it. In all honestly it reads to me you’re more upset people are not sufficiently polite in disagreement. Anarchists can and will be rude, especially towards people like PJ routinely but politely calling them “nazis” for not engaging in the electoralism farce. Nobody is under any onus to remain polite to spare your feelings, nor does this make is a “tribe” because we tend to attract anarchists who feel the same way about liberals.

                    Fuck I don’t even know at this point what your problem even is, that we attract like-minded people in our instance? We don’t want to be lemmy.world for a reason and if you want that, well lemmy.world already exists.

                    Seriously, We’re not going to go around policing people for rudeness. This is absurd and will not work whatsoever.

          • db0
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            62 days ago

            People say this stuff and then claim that we’re doing bad faith takes. Go figure.

            • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost
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              32 days ago

              As we know, bad faith is when you defend yourself with evidence and good faith is when you make shit up to slander people and groups.

              They are very smart.

            • 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮
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              If you feel that statement is in bad faith, maybe you should have a talk with Unruffled about their wanton banning of users for “mod abuse” over users downvoting them.

              • db0
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                Why, yes s it is bad faith to misrepresent the cause of the mod action and then double down on it.

                In any case, feel free to open a yptb post if you’re do certain our cause was trivial.

                  • db0
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                    32 days ago

                    So you keep saying. I don’t just think that, I know that. And given that it’s very easy for people to call us out on it officially and yet nobody seems to want to, I’m fairly confident we’ve taken the right decision. Unlike other instances, we welcome criticism of admin actions as we don’t think we’re infallible.

      • snooggums
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        52 days ago

        It’s like nuance doesn’t exist.

        Yes, there were a lot of false accounts of rape on October 7th that were obviously framed based on hateful stereotypes intended to dehumanize. There were also actual rapes that did happen. But to some people everything is black and white and all they care about is whoever is on their ‘side’.

        • @goat@sh.itjust.worksM
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          32 days ago

          You’ll need to supply evidence for those claims. Creating false accounts of rape is very serious.

          • PhilipTheBucket
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            112 days ago

            https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

            I’ve read the whole report, that’s a short summary created by the UN investigators. Basic TL;DR of the whole situation:

            • Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
            • The report stops short of claiming it was done by “Hamas” or in any systematized or sanctioned fashion. A lot of people who took part in the attack were not Hamas, and it was totally impossible to sort out which specific person had done any specific attack, so they didn’t make that claim. It happened a lot though.
            • The Israeli government and the New York Times both lied about some specific instances of rape, just because it’s in both of their DNA to make up pro-Israel bullshit. The investigators who made the report debunked some of the Israeli government’s claims, which was easy, and based their findings mostly on objective evidence instead of what anyone from Israel told them.

            That’s the short version. Various people have seized on point #2 or point #3 to claim that point #1 didn’t happen, but it did.

            Also, I think that some people on Lemmy love bringing this up, because it winds up painting anyone who cares about the truth into the “pro-Israel” side of the debate, and then they can call them a Zionist.

            Anyway, yes, the people who did October 7th definitely raped a lot of people. It doesn’t mean Israel should be committing a genocide. If it helps clarify things, the Israeli government has been facilitating aid for Hamas for years because they love having things like October 7th happen and give them excuses, and they love when Hamas rapes people or takes hostages, for the same reason. They wish it would happen every day, and so then they could talk about it and pretend even harder that shooting little kids in the groin or starving entire families to death is totally justified.

            • archomrade [he/him]
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              Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread

              Can you specifically cite this? Specifically, I don’t see anything in the report that is as definitive as “was widespread”. The actual words I see in their report is:

              there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred

              edit: here’s a link to the actual report

              From the official report, this is based on patterns that are described as ‘partially or fully naked victims’, but they specifically say that they cannot verify specific instances beyond this type of “circumstantial” evidence or eyewitness testimony. They even say:

              It must be noted that witnesses and sources with whom the mission team engaged adopted over time an increasingly cautious and circumspect approach regarding past accounts, including in some cases retracting statements made previously. Some also stated to the mission team that they no longer felt confident in their recollections of other assertions that had appeared in the media.

              Considering that these reports are often cited as justification for various war crimes and acts of genocide, it’s extremely important to be precise with language and delineate what is definitively known vs what is assumed.

                • archomrade [he/him]
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                  That is the exact same report I just linked to you.

                  I’m not baiting you, but I would like you to substantiate your claim that I’m increasingly suspecting is willfully incorrect.

                  edit: it’s fine if you simply misspoke. If there’s something more definitive than I’m seeing that’s fine too, I just want the record to be set straight

                  • PhilipTheBucket
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                    You know what? Sure.

                    58. Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by
                    eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including
                    gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible
                    information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape
                    and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of
                    rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described
                    seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the
                    waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their
                    hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles.

                    60. There are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred on and around
                    Road 232. Credible information based on corroborating witness accounts describes an incident
                    involving the rape of two women. The mission team received other accounts of rape, including
                    gang rape, which could not be verified during the time provided and would require further
                    investigation. Along this road, several bodies were found with genital injuries, along with
                    injuries to other body parts. Discernible patterns of genital mutilation could not be verified at this
                    time but warrant future investigation. Many bodies along Road 232 also suffered destructive
                    burn damage and conclusions as to conflict-related sexual violence (including genital mutilation)
                    related to these incidents could not be drawn. The mission team was also able to ascertain that
                    multiple bodies of women and a few men were found totally or partially naked or with their
                    clothes torn, including some bound and/or attached to structures, which – though circumstantial
                    – may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence.

                    It then goes kibbutz by kibbutz, detailing what was or wasn’t found in each location and the limits of what they were able to conclude, including debunking what seems to me like a pretty clear pattern of certain fabricated accounts, in sections 62 through 67.

                    71. The mission team reviewed incidents of alleged sexual violence related to hostages in
                    Gaza. Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and
                    convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel,
                    inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time
                    in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing.

                    They also visited the West Bank, and made sure to make it clear that Israel is also committing inhuman treatmentt of Palestinians including sexual violence. I think there was a whole separate report or something that expanded on that to put it in context, this one just briefly touches on it.

                    Overall:

                    84. Overall, based on the totality of information gathered from multiple and independent
                    sources at the different locations, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related
                    sexual violence occurred at several locations across the Gaza periphery, including in the form of
                    rape and gang rape, during the 7 October 2023 attacks. Credible circumstantial information,
                    which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation,
                    sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered.

                    85. With regards to the hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information
                    that some hostages taken to Gaza have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual
                    violence and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.

                    86. The mission team was unable to establish the prevalence of sexual violence and
                    concludes that the overall magnitude, scope, and specific attribution of these violations would
                    require a fully-fledged investigation. A comprehensive investigation would enable the
                    information base to be expanded in locations which the mission team was not able to visit and to
                    build the required trust with survivors/victims of conflict-related sexual violence who may be
                    reluctant to come forward at this point.

          • snooggums
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            2 days ago

            https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e

            The U.N. envoy focusing on sexual violence in conflict said in a new report Monday that there are “reasonable grounds” to believe Hamas committed rape, “sexualized torture,” and other cruel and inhumane treatment of women during its surprise attack in southern Israel on Oct. 7.

            The exaggerated and fictional accusations of rape are serious, like the parading through the streets nonsense.

      • archomrade [he/him]
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        22 days ago

        As far as I’m aware, the most the UN has been able to say definitively is that there are ‘reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred’, but that they were unable to establish the prevalence, overall magnitude, scope, or specific attribution. That’s a pretty far cry from ‘UN-verified sexual assault’

        They’ve been harping on Israel to let them do a full investigation but they’ve repeatedly stonewalled them.

    • Eldritch
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      2 days ago

      I think Philip was referring to the venom and hostility on display from some lately. I said something similar to pug last night. To be clear it isn’t you or anything you’ve done.

      And I fully understand the recoiling at some of the hyper reflexive venom on display from a few when anything regarding AI is brought up. It’s a tool, and neither good or bad on its own. But some squeal like drama queens if you even bring it up.

      Conversely the other day I had someone from your instance call me, someone who would at least be a syndicist a shit-lib. Because I made a point of calling for solidarity and mutual aid, pointing out that our failures to do so are part of what has led us to the current points of crisis we find ourselves in. I had a bit of a chuckle at the tanky talk. But it wasn’t something completely isolated. Though again I’m gonna reiterate. None of this involves you. And you aren’t their keeper. They are adults who can make their own decisions and mistakes.

      • db0
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        2 days ago

        Ye, we obviously can have some acerbic users as well, can’t avoid it 12k registrations. But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them. Still doesn’t make the instance tankie thought 😅

        • Eldritch
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          52 days ago

          Oh for sure. I know I can be a handful myself, as can pug. Generally on the whole though. It’s not been the experience I’ve had with the instance. But it has been something that oddly has come up a number of times lately. Quite honestly I think current events are really testing and breaking a lot of people.

          Sadly the horrors are only getting started. Things are going to get so much worse.

          • db0
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            72 days ago

            Yes people seem to forget that the world is going to hell in a hsndbasket, naturally a lot of people are having way less patience than before

            • Eldritch
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              72 days ago

              Which is unfortunately the time that it’s needed most.

        • go $fsck yourself
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          12 days ago

          But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them.

          What if they are admins that seem to follow someone or at least constantly be needlessly rude and aggressive towards and lie about a certain individual?

          (Not to make any claims or anything about dbzer0 being tankie)

          • db0
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            1 day ago

            Anyone solid in our instance can request an admin recall with a vote

            • go $fsck yourself
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              -11 day ago

              So, if there is a feedback loop where if dbzer0 users are ultimately okay with an admin harassing people, then the toxicity can persist? As long as they can convince others with lies then the admin can get away with it? That “tend to” in my quote seems to be doing some real heavy lifting, from my perspective.

              • db0
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                1 day ago

                You’d prefer that one person decide by fiat what’s OK or not? I don’t know about you but I find democracy superior to dictatorship, even when nominally “benevolent” .

                • go $fsck yourself
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                  -41 day ago

                  So, obvious harassment and toxicity needs to be put to a vote for any action to be taken? Yeah, I’m going to have to disagree on that one.

                  • db0
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                    1 day ago

                    Clearly, it’s not “obvious” at all. Again, we anarchists tend to prefer democracy over dictatorship.

                • go $fsck yourself
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                  -31 day ago

                  Maybe not, depending on if people already made up their mind to side with that person or against me, then yeah it won’t serve me much.

                  They were very clearly being needlessly antagonistic and accusatory towards someone who was trying to defend others being harassed and help get rid of a horribly toxic user.

                  The start of it makes no sense, either. Why would I have known at all about some other alts being banned from dbzer0 when I had blocked the instance a long time ago? No one brought that up at all nor does it matter in the context of the issue at hand.

                  Honestly, if that’s not obvious and someone thinks that comment is fine, then that is a perfect example of why I’m starting to hate Lemmy.

        • snooggums
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          2 days ago

          No, you don’t get rid of them. They become mods of multiple communities.

          Nobody is accusing the instance of being literal tankies, they are pointing out that the behavior is consistent with common tankie behavior.

          • db0
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            42 days ago

            Feel free to make a ytpb post about it and we can see what people think about such mods

            • snooggums
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              There are multiple posts there already about the topic including the most popular one that was locked because the mods kept failing to understand what anyone was saying.

              If you want to know what people think, check out the up to down vote ratio in the comments. Feel free to accuse .world of brigading like those mods or whatever other stupid excuse based on a lack of understanding how instance populations work.

              I was banned because Unruffled is a petty jerk, so I won’t be posting another thread about the same topic of how petty and toxic a small group of prolific mods of dbzer0 communities are. Pointing that out is clearly not allowed in yptb.

              • PhilipTheBucket
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                32 days ago

                https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/modlog/961853

                https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48662871

                Holy FUCK lol

                I knew things were getting weird but I had no idea. I can’t even begin to unpack all the layers of this. There’s too much.

                “How dare you speak ill of the people above you, disagree with their decisions and explain why even, on this YPTB sub. That is classed as ‘pissy’ and ‘shitty’ and will earn a perma ban for those reasons. Meanwhile, if you have a grudge against a ‘turbolib’, here are some handy slurs you might want to use…”

                I still also can’t fathom the apparently successful effort to start to split people into “pro AI” and “anti AI” camps.

                  • PhilipTheBucket
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                    -11 day ago

                    I was mostly talking about the modlog, check out the bans for SoftestSapphic and snoogums for example.

                • Blaze (he/him)
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                  42 days ago

                  It’s not that deep, it’s just people getting banned over downvoting in communities they don’t contribute to. A debate even older than Lemmy

                  I still also can’t fathom the apparently successful effort to start to split people into “pro AI” and “anti AI” camps.

                  Yeah, I just don’t get why it’s getting so heated lately https://lemmy.world/post/31072292/17587686

                  • PhilipTheBucket
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                    -11 day ago

                    I was talking about the bans for SoftestSapphic and snoogums among others. Banning people for downvoting stuff from communities they “don’t contribute to” is also stupid, that’s literally how voting is supposed to work: To surface content people want to see and reduce content people object to. It’s honestly not a real great system but deciding that anyone who downvotes your community’s content is obviously an asshole and deserves to be disabled from being able to do that, so that your content will be protected against people who don’t like it using the Lemmy features which are designed for the content they don’t like, is some only-child “you can’t hit me I’m a ghost” fuckin’ nonsense too.

                • snooggums
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                  12 days ago

                  I’m sorry, are you unable to count votes to see what people think about your mods?

                  • db0
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                    62 days ago

                    We really don’t use votes for yptb. We have specific keywords if one wants to tally. Likewise actual voting happens in our governance comm, and our actual users seem to be onboard with what we’ve been doing consistently