It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.

  • PhilipTheBucketEnglish
    -2•2 days ago

    Seriously, We’re not going to go around policing people for rudeness. This is absurd and will not work whatsoever.

    Absolutely, you should not. People should be able to say what they want, if that somehow wasn’t clear. What I was saying was that it’s very silly to ban people for criticizing your decisions in clear and rational language[1], or for their politics, or for very tenuous claims of “ableism” if you just kind of don’t like the content of what they have to say[2], or to call downvotes “abuse” and try to protect certain ones of your communities against getting downvotes by literally banning anyone who tries to give one to the content… but then, when the target is outside the kid-gloves safe space, turn loose this massive drama-cannon with wild insults and accusations and say “Yes! All good, our admins will join in in fact!” and then now hide behind this thing of “Oh ho that’s just the wild west of the ol’ internet for ya, free speech ya know” that you would never put up with if someone tried to, for example, give YOU a downvote or a dissenting comment[3], because that’s abusive and they’re a troll now.

    This whole thing originated because you’ve been slinging around bans for people who don’t get with the program you want them to get with or say things to you that you don’t like. I didn’t come to you whining to ask you to stop anyone being mean to me, I actually got involved because you wanted PugJesus to stop being mean to your comments and posts because he’s not allowed. I’m much more in favor of people being able to have their say, I mostly object to the banhammering side, I’m just now poking at the hypocrisy of it.

    Up to you though. You’ve clearly decided, I’m just repeating at this point, so cheers I guess.

    1. SoftestSapphic from https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/modlog/961853 (also snoogums)
    2. https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/20015605, they said “shizo” FWIW, telling enemies they have psychological disorders is fine though
    3. Same modlog link, search for “not up for debate”
    • db0English
      6•2 days ago

      Ok basically your argument devolves to misrepresenting and trivializing why we took any admin actions. I think you’re being massively disingenuous and not worth it discussing with at this point, but I’ll repeat, if our instance members think we’re as hypocritical as you do, they’re welcome to open the relevant governance posts and reign us in. It won’t happen, cause we aren’t of course.

      Anyway I won’t bother with this thread anymore. I have no patience for people who misrepresent the facts quite that much just to win internet arguments.

      • PhilipTheBucketEnglish
        1•1 day ago

        Not sure which thread you mean, but If you think people expressing their low opinions about someone is “bullying”, then, well you haven’t experienced bullying. And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion? Like, this is a legit absurd argument path.

        -db0

        Sounds like she “expressed some low opinions” of dbzer0, and it all of a sudden wasn’t so absurd an argument path, and turned into a big deal.

        I agree with db0 that this argument has pretty much been and done at this point, but yes this is just more “in-group vs out-group” stuff.

          • PhilipTheBucketEnglish
            1•1 day ago

            SoftestSapphic is trans. She was upset about a troll coming into her community and making fun of her identity in a particularly cruel way (likening it to fantasy creatures or a kids’ game or something), and then further upset by the mods of blahaj defending the troll and banning people who criticized them. That’s why she’s angry about it. Honestly, I don’t blame her, it makes perfect sense to me.

            Ada said that she defended Dragonrider for quite a long time even after people started telling her they were encouraging people to self-harm and other objectively horrible behavior, because she felt bad because they were getting “harassed.” Of course, when they did something much more minor to Ada, she suddenly felt they were toxic and had to go.

            I don’t want to have this whole ridiculous debate again. I feel stupid even touching on it to this extent, I just wanted to give you that relevant context. You’re literally celebrating the dbzer0 admins for banning a trans person for trying to voice her objection to the performative and stupid way that trans issues are handled in some segments of Lemmy. In my world, she should be allowed to say that. In yours and dbzer0’s, apparently she should not, because db0 is the arbiter of whether trans issues are being handled correctly, and she is not, and she needs to obey their instructions for what she can and can’t speak up on.

            Also, the “low opinions” db0 is talking about there were:

            I think he’s an obnoxious dickhead

            I remember his username and him being a twat

            He’s a genocide-supporting Zionist radlib

            a goddam stalker

            an angry turbolib who blames the left (and Eugene in particular, for some reason) for the pathetic failure of the corporate-c**k-sucking Democrats

            Do you think those are direct personal insults, which should be handled differently than for example criticism of an instance’s policies or for someone’s specific actions? Good! So do I. Because db0 apparently has some six inch thick rose-colored glasses that get applied to any action that is done by “our good people,” though, they are just “low opinions.”

            Honestly I thought you were smart and well-meaning, just kind of focused on growth of the community and creating positive things. The more I am looking into how dbzer0 does things, the more I think lumping them in with the tankie instances with their admin behavior fits pretty well, and I have no idea why you’re bending over backwards so far to defend them.

            • Blaze (he/him)English
              3•1 day ago

              I don’t want to have this whole ridiculous debate again. I feel stupid even touching on it to this extent, I just wanted to give you that relevant context. You’re literally celebrating the dbzer0 admins for banning a trans person for trying to voice her objection to the performative and stupid way that trans issues are handled in some segments of Lemmy. In my world, she should be allowed to say that. In yours and dbzer0’s, apparently she should not, because db0 is the arbiter of whether trans issues are being handled correctly, and she is not, and she needs to obey their instructions for what she can and can’t speak up on.

              The majority of the users of Blahaj are trans too.

              I remember his username and him being a twat

              PJ himself admitted that being correct

              I mean tbf both of those are at least true

              https://lemmy.world/comment/18435763

              On top of that, the community is called !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com, having this kind of statements regarding the reported power tripping mod is as old as the community.

              When you look at the recent thread about JordanLund (https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48096338), you see things like

              It’s been a couple of weeks since @jordanlund@lemmy.world was in here defending genocide. I almost missed the ugly fucking zio. Automatic PTB for anything he touches with his scummy little fingers.

              You commented below it without seeing any issue.

              I’ll happily advocate for the Palestinians’ rights to kill as many of the IDF as they can manage. It won’t solve their problems, but they’ve got every right to do it, and nothing else that I can see will solve any of their problems other than better leadership in the US.

              I think you’ve probably understood me pretty well, what you decide about me is up to you just like it is for everyone else.

              Don’t go to lemmy.world, it’s a silly place, for this among some other reasons.

              https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48096338/19830549

              What has changed since then?

              Honestly I thought you were smart and well-meaning, just kind of focused on growth of the community and creating positive things. The more I am looking into how dbzer0 does things, the more I think lumping them in with the tankie instances with their admin behavior fits pretty well, and I have no idea why you’re bending over backwards so far to defend them.

              As I mentioned in a previous comment you never replied to (https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49728632/20305246)

              I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments

              Cool! Now accuse him of caring way too much about politics, and getting in heated debates about it like a LOSER, speaking as you are from your lemmy.ml address. That’ll make perfect sense too.

              Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”

              You are scrutinizing all dbzer0 mod actions to put them in the worst way possible, while nothing is new:

              • YPTB has always had some aggressive comments towards the reported power tripper
              • The dbzer0 stance on the drag matter is known, nothing new here
              • the pro / anti AI seems to be dbzer0 mods banning people who downvote their content on their communities, seems quite common across the platform

              If !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com seems too oriented for you, feel free to reanimate !modabuse@lemmy.sdf.org or create another community. That would be interesting, to be honest.

              • PhilipTheBucketEnglish
                2•1 day ago
                • I strongly object to silencing trans voices on trans issues, even if there are other trans people who feel differently or even if they are okay with the silence. People are tribal, cis or trans, and of course there is a self-selection effect, where people on blahaj are in favor of the blahaj administration for the same reason people on lemmy.ml or Hexbear are in favor of their instances’ administration
                • The 196 mods were clearly wrong. I took Ada’s side, to the extent I cared about that whole thing, just because I’m in general opposed to the "boss"es of whatever environment telling the users what to do. It sounds like Ada was doing the bulk of the moderation, anyway, and the mods were just there to give orders but shirking the actual work involved.
                • I definitely wasn’t in favor of shitting on JordanLund in that way. I don’t even like Jordan, but the consistent effort to paint him as a Zionist (along with me, FlyingSquid, PugJesus, and more or less anyone who is opposed to a certain noisy contingent of users) and the wild gross personal attacks are not at all something I am in favor of. I think you can probably find me standing up for him against some similar abuse if you look further back, maybe not, but in that individual message I mostly just kind of didn’t want to get involved in it and wanted to clarify my Israel stance and peace out. Look and see if you can find me calling someone a “twat” in anger, or talking about their grubby sticky fingers, anything like that, instead of just it being in a message I’m responding to. You might be able to, but as much as I can manage, I try to get heated about issues and events and not about people’s personal characteristics.
                • I didn’t respond to your message just because it was long and it was going to take some doing to look up all the links and unpack it all, and I’d already done what I thought about things more or less to death. If you really want me to, I can go back and take a look, I’m not trying to ignore it but it was a long argument with a lot of repetition anyway so hopefully it’s understandable. What the hell, I’ll take a look later today I think.
                • I wasn’t implying people who care about politics on whatever side are losers. I was saying that people are accusing PugJesus of being a loser because he cares and argues about politics, and lemmy.ml is the glassiest of glass houses as far as that accusation.
                • I had no real problem with dbzer0 up until a couple of days ago, I actually generally liked their instance because it seemed sensible. Some of the mods’ politics I don’t agree with but that is par for the course and normal. Now having observed some of their decisions at close range I don’t feel that way. I did think about “migrating” to some other place for the topics I care about that have communities like YPTB on dbzer0, but just like in the 196 case, it doesn’t really work entirely that way, and anyway if they continue to let me say what I want to say in YPTB, I probably won’t really care beyond just voicing my opinion on it all.
                • Blaze (he/him)English
                  3•16 hours ago

                  I wasn’t implying people who care about politics on whatever side are losers. I was saying that people are accusing PugJesus of being a loser because he cares and argues about politics, and lemmy.ml is the glassiest of glass houses as far as that accusation.

                  Ok, that makes more sense.

                  I did think about “migrating” to some other place for the topics I care about that have communities like YPTB on dbzer0, but just like in the 196 case, it doesn’t really work entirely that way, and anyway if they continue to let me say what I want to say in YPTB, I probably won’t really care beyond just voicing my opinion on it all.

                  It’s up to you. I think it would be good to have another !yptb community that’s not satire or a one person creation.

                  You could potentially enforce more respectful discussions there.

                  • PhilipTheBucketEnglish
                    1•10 hours ago

                    You could potentially enforce more respectful discussions there.

                    I actually lean more towards the side of “let the people talk.” Some direct personal insults I feel like are maybe worth keeping away (I read this comment and was going to voice my agreement but then when I got to the “moron” part that instantly made me conclude, welp buddy, that’s not productive). Mostly though I think the main asset of an alternative mod feedback community is that the dbzer0 admins are fine doing deletions and bans from YPTB for various reasons including “trying to stir up instance drama over our genAI policies, which are not up for debate.” UP-FOR-DEBATING THE POLICIES IS LITERALLY THE PURPOSE OF THE COMMUNITY. But, as soon as someone comes into it and disagrees with the dbzer0 admins on some issue, they often decide it is some particular category of not allowed debate, and ban the person.

                    There are some other examples on that page that to me are equally stupid, but that one takes the cake to me. If I were to make a competing YPTB community, I think that’s the most important rule I would change, personal attacks being allowed or not is a lot less crucial than that to me.