It’s not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.
ELI5
Yeah. I hear the term tankie all the time and no one has given me a concise answer yet. Also devs are the people that make the product, you know, the developers. Not the people policing it’s content.
Tankie is a term used derogatory that essentially refers to people who are self proclaimed communists that support the CCP and other authoritarian governments that label themselves as communist. I’m decently sure the term is a reference to the Tiananmen Square.
The tankie triad is a reference to the 3 biggest instances for them: lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, and hexbear.net
Now in all honesty I have only seen a handful of bad faith actors. Usually it’s because:
- They are extremely critical of the US and in extension Israel, which is completely valid because right now the US is a shithole
- They are extremely defensive of any communist parties. They deny any wrongdoings of the CCP as western propaganda, take the side of Russia over Ukraine, CCP over Taiwan and HK, etc.
To me it’s hypocritical to be against the current authoritarian and fascist US, but also be supportive of the authoritarian CCP and Russia. It’s ok to recognize some actions that the CCP has done as an objectively good thing (like modernization of public transport), but they also deny the fact that the CCP has done atrocious acts and essentially bully the neighbors (aka the rest of Asia).
For reference I have no issues with the idea of socialism or even communism, but the CCP is far from those ideals.
Also devs are the people that make the product, you know, the developers. Not the people policing it’s content.
They also have the biggest Lemmy instance with lots of big communities where they enforce the “xi jin ping/putin/kim jung un/mao/stalin/etc… is good, west bad” policy under the name of “Rule 1”
They are only the 4th
You can click the links in the sidebar for what a tankie is.
But basically they’re an extremist who believe in extraordinary violence, genocide and authoritarianism. They’re also called red fascists, in that they share the same views and talking points of fascists, but with a pseudo-communist tinge.
Gotcha. Thank you for explaining it homie!
The term tankie came to be after instances of the USSR suppressing protests by driving tanks into the protestors. Like the Prague Spring in Czechoslovakia in 1968. This resulted in people, in the west, who are leftists, defending these actions, as some sort of necessity, in order to maintain communism. The defense of the extreme authoritarianism used here, IE using tanks to kill people, is where the term “Tankie” comes from.
wait, some people don’t think they’re tankies? I’d say they’re pretty open about it.
“Ah yes. These developers made an alternative to reddit and gave it to the people without any ads, spending hours without a paycheck for their code. Surely they must be business-owners.”
Are you saying that if you aren’t capitalist then you are a tanky? That may be a hint reductionist lol.
Huh? They are openly tankies why would this be a hot take?
I greatly enjoy the human creativity that went behind this meme. We need more high quality OC here.
This isn’t even a debate, the person who made Lemmy named themselves after a genocidal warlord lmao
They made a damn fine android app though
the developer is obviously a bad person but Dessalines simply carried out something resembling a Nuremberg trial rather than a “genocide”.
there is no historical evidence of a genocide happening in 1804. the people claiming a “white genocide” happened are white French who would obviously be biased and would want to defend their “human rights” image on the global stage.
this is akin to the binary propaganda that paints October 7 as a “genocide” and Israel’s actual genocide of Palestinians as a humanitarian mission to eradicate terrorism.
No he didn’t. They killed the guilty and the innocent making no effort to distinguish between them. The soldiers mostly escaped whereas civilians were murdered. In fact most people in Haiti had little stomach for the sort of purge of French women and children he desired to the point where it doesn’t happen until he tours a particular settlement.
One can argue all day long he was revenging very legit harms but it doesn’t make him less of a monster and his people ultimately agreed and murdered him.
there was no distinction between “civilians” and soldiers because the people he targeted fought in the colonial National Guard. you would’ve known this if you had read the sources I linked though. from WP:
In a 2005 article titled “Caribbean genocide,” historian Philippe Girard argued that during the first four months of 1804, “on Dessalines’s orders, soldiers rounded up white planters, their families, French soldiers and the urban poor known as petits blancs, and killed them. Neither women nor children were spared.” Drawing heavily on Girard’s claims, podcaster Mike Duncan, in Season 4 of “Revolutions,” offers a sensationalized account of what he calls the “genocidal massacres” of 1804. He alleges that Haitian soldiers raped all the White women and concludes that Dessalines committed a “heinous crime.”
Did Dessalines execute French soldiers and colonists? Yes. But this fact has been exaggerated and taken out of historical context.
When the French evacuated in late 1803, they did not concede defeat. Instead, a small contingent of troops relocated to the city of Santo Domingo and began threatening to reinvade and “annihilate” the Black population. Dessalines soon learned of these plans. He also learned about support among White colonists for the recent French expedition. In this context, he ordered the execution of people who had “taken an active part in the different massacres and assassinations” by the French army. But, rather than targeted executions for the defense of the country, terrified colonists claimed to have witnessed the “massacre” of all the White people.
Historical documents reveal, however, that many White people remained in Haiti after this alleged genocide. For example, a partial census from October 1804 lists more than 600 White people in the district of Gros Morne alone. That same month — after all the White people were allegedly killed — a British captain claimed that 200 White women were in imminent danger of being “massacred” in Cap Haitien.
Claiming that Dessalines targeted civilians is also misleading. Many of those he executed fought in the colonial National Guard — militia units of male planters and merchants — which supported the French military expedition. Such claims also downplay the violence of colonialism. Settlers were enslavers, and as historian Vincent Brown has shown, slavery was war. Anti-colonialism is not genocide.
this rhetoric sounds like the Israeli hasbara painting settlers as innocent civilians when most of them either served in the IDF or are currently reservists.
When you massacre non-combatants, women, and children as factually did happen its genocide. The fact that not all jews were killed doesn’t negate for instance that the holocaust happened. For every genocide there are apologists. The fact that the french as a people may logically be deemed to be more deserving of reciprocal violence doesn’t justify it because violence is done to individuals by individuals. They could have forcibly relocated the people or allowed them to be re-located especially the old, women, and children. They broadly committed mass murder. The fact that the french did much worse doesn’t make those immoral acts moral.
Anti-colonialism is not genocide
Genocide is genocide.
When you massacre non-combatants, women, and children as factually did happen its genocide
this is word for word what the French did to Haitians. that was the only genocide that ever happened during the Haitian Revolution. implying that racism against white colonizers is possible or if you’re a white supremacist claiming that resisting a Holocaust is akin to committing genocide is a genocide denier’s talking point.
Of course racism is possible vs anyone it’s simply a word for pre judgement based on race. If Animus is based on what is actually happening right now it’s arguably not racism it’s simply a correct judgment call. The French as a group were at war with the Haitians but you still can’t morally slaughter non combatants.
I hate the attempt to remove a definition of the word racism from the dictionary and replace its definition with something closer to systemic racism or oppression.
What word then means prejudgements based on race?
Of course the oppressed can’t oppress the oppressor but anyone can prejudge based on race which has been a valid definition of racism for a very long time.
The Frenchs behavior was abhorrent but this doesn’t absolve anyone from the requirement to be moral themselves.
Murdering women and children isn’t resisting genocide it’s just plain old genocide same as if we had put German civilians into their own ovens after ww2.
Were those civilians complicit. Largely I feel that the answer is yes. But we are required to be moral ourselves even when faced with immorality.
show us the sources where he ordered French women and children purged
Show me the sources for where Hitler ordered the holocaust. You can. I can. But I think if you need them it might not be worth my time to bother. This genocide happened.
so you have jack-shit to show for it, got it. really makes your position extremely credible lmao
You could literally read the Wikipedia entry
What kind of sources do you expect from 200 years ago?
Oh wow I never actually knew that.
Do you want to make a thread about that?
Thank goodness piefed exists :)
I hope we’ll get more options in the future as well - I’m working on my own alternative at the moment :)
Don’t know what Piefed is
If I’m not mistaken, it’s a parallel project to Lemmy that’s also based on ActivityPub for the fediverse. Think of it as a different terminal by different devs for the same communities.
So it’s more than just a different instance?
There are some Growing Pains at the moment. But there were with Lemmy as well. I hope to see them better resolve soon enough. And I’ve been enjoying it plenty myself.
Still waiting for Boost to support it (which is planned), then I’m jumping ship.
Voyager started recently. And already does 90% of what’s necessary. I really would like to see it add in the way piefed combines all comment sections from every cross posted instance of a link. That’s the one big thing I’m missing at the moment. But it’s also a fairly big change under the hood I’m sure
Been getting my meds in order so I have the wherewithal and organization to make the move myself. Had to move one comm early, and it seems pretty functional so far. Have to admit that I’m not thrilled about the color schemes available, but that’s a small price to pay for the eventual avoidance of supporting tankie ghouls.
The only reason I have yet to switch is because I can’t find a “hide bot accounts” button, as I can’t stand seeing bot posts/comments.
In “Block and Filters” you can block bots
All, or 1 at a time? Because I did not find an option to block them all, automatically when I checked.
I see a “Hide completely” option in “hide posts from bots”
I was about to thank you again on my piefed.ca account, but I could not find this comment chain (starting from pugjesus’s comment), and after turning off bot/nsfl filters, I can’t even see the post anymore on piefed.
You can try to retrieve the post remotely using the search (bottom button on the search page)
Good to know, I could not find that last I checked!
What? You don’t think 1970 / 80 was the peak of UI design? That you can ever have enough imitation green phosphor on black? LOL yes it’s pretty bare at the moment. But the project itself is new enough and its come along fast enough that I think we can forgive it for now. It’s definitely promising how widely it’s being picked up and deployed.
Switching over account data was really easy at least. I think Voyager has it and I know Interstellar does. I used Interstellar to migrate all my Subs Etc. I saw a piefed has a link to migrate whole communities. Though I haven’t tried that yet. I’m assuming it does more than just creating similarly named communities. But I haven’t looked into it.
I saw a piefed has a link to migrate whole communities.
Okay, replicating old posts, comments and even transferring some of the members?! That’s, impressive.
Posts, not comments unfortunately at the time, I think that has changed since
Uh… nobody at all has been pretending the Lemmy devs aren’t tankies. The whole point of this community is dunking on tankies, but let’s keep content at a level above “tankie bad haha”.
Uh… nobody at all has been pretending the Lemmy devs aren’t tankies.
A large number of MLs assert that they’re only being called tankies because everyone else is a shitlib who can’t handle anyone left of Pelosi.
I mean yes, but even then what they’re saying isn’t that they’re not tankies, but that we’re just shitlibs who can’t handle Real Leftism™. Like, MLs don’t say “yeah tankies are insane, but I’m not that;” they say “there’s nothing such as a tankie you shitlib,” so while they do reject the label because it’s derogatory they don’t really contest the meat of it. If “tankie” didn’t have a negative connotation they’d be wearing it proudly.
“there’s no such thing as a tankie”
How the hell can you say that denying tankies even exist isn’t denying being a tankie?
Because again, they object to the label simply because it sounds bad; they’ll never actually contest tankie beliefs. They’ll be like “yes I’m what you call a tankie, but that’s because you’re a shitlib”. Contrast to modern fascists, which do try to distinguish themselves from literal Nazis despite no substantial difference existing.
It’s not fun interacting with them
Semi related: Something weird has been going on at dbzer0 yesterday and today. They are not normally tankies, they always seemed like they were just kind of sensible and doing their own thing, but since the time of the “pro AI” vs “anti AI” thing they now seem to have declared absolute scorched earth war on “the liberals” in the same way that the triad always has.
It’s like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the “anti-AI troll” banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff… it’s fuckin’ nuts. It came out of nowhere.
dbzer0 is an Anarchist instance: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism
Self-identified as one yes.
Also, I know what anarchism is, but thanks.
just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong
Bro, I love you, but you never miss an opportunity to bring my name up in your posts. I ain’t got nothing to do with whatever it is you’re going on about, friend. And by the way, I didn’t do anything wrong, so whoever told you that is right!
That whole thing got debunked quite quickly https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49344640/20291854
Thanks for being a neutral and logical in this thing.
I think with Philpthebucket, he’s just letting his annoyance with me overtake the logic he usually has. I’ve seen past posts of his where he’s showing timestamps, logins, receipts etc to backup his point. But in this particular issue w me, he seems to be letting his feelings take over rather than his usual logic.
Most of his talk about me lately is just “Because of course Universal Monk is…” sorta statements. Which isn’t really a good standard. If we’re going to use his logic that I’m involved in something just because I’m commenting about a subject in a thread talking about the subject, then he’s involved in it too. And you. And everyone who replies to a thread.
I kinda tried to follow the issues that he’s reporting, but it’s all over the place and he’s naming so many people. I just couldn’t follow it all. I have no clue what the actual frustration is. Is he for the anti-ai people or against them? Like what is he mad about?
I know I sometimes I give you shit about your takes, but you’re a pretty stand-up guy. I still disagree with a lot of your opinions about me, but fuck all, you stay neutral more often than not, so I can respect that and I respect you. (most of the time, haha)
They are not normally tankies
What, in your opinion, makes us “tankies” from what you just said? Respect for the neopronouns, intolerance towards Genai-hater trolls, or mod actions towards someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users?
Anarchists always had very similar critiques towards capitalism as Marxists. Where we differ is what we do about it, and these actions is what can label someone a “tankie”
I didn’t say you were tankies, I actually said you were not. I just said something weird was going on with dbzer0. Your comment here, I say without really meaning any hostility by it, is more weird stuff.
Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.
Intolerance towards genAI-hater trolls was never the issue, it was random mod actions against people who were not genAI-hater trolls. And then pretending that anyone who got the random unwarranted mod action was probably a genAI-hater troll.
Both of those are the dishonest framings that the people defending whatever weird decision love to use. And, no matter how often it’s pointed out to them that some other people disagree with their framing, they simply ignore it, as if the person hadn’t said anything at all, and repeat the framing that conveniently makes their answer the only possible answer. That is textbook tankie-instance behavior. It’s part of what makes them insufferable to try to talk with. Even if your politics are clearly not tankie.
And, of course:
someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users
Aha!
“One of our users.”
That’s the root of the issue, to me. You’re starting to treat “your users” differently than other users.
One of your users spent part of yesterday following me around and replying to me in a few different threads demanding that I take part in an argument I’d already addressed and then told them I wasn’t interested in continuing. Is that harassment? No, because it’s your users.
There’s this massive thread accusing PugJesus of all kinds of stuff: That he’s pro-Israel, that he’s a terminally online weirdo loser, that he never backs up anything he says, that he bans anyone who criticizes Israel, that he’s transphobic and doesn’t respect people’s pronouns, that he’s a twat, and so on. That’s completely fine, because he’s a “lib.” He’s the enemy. We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified, it’s a big hateful groupthink that defines things in terms of enemies (and a crucial part is twisting things around so that someone can be defined as a horrifying enemy in some way, which is why they’re pretending he is pro-Israel) and in-groups. Why is that all okay? Because he’s not one of your users. He’s the out-group, he is a liberal apparently.
In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action. If you pretend someone said something they didn’t say to stir up shit, you get mod action. Ada’s description from a different domain was actually pretty good: There are certain types of respect that are not “a reward for good behaviour.” They’re just what we need to do for each other to keep the community on the rails. On most of Lemmy, the mod action for violating that kind of respect is overtly one-sided; if you’re in the in-group, it’s allowed, if you’re aiming it towards the in-group, then you get mod action because it’s a crisis.
Does that one-sided moderation, and officially badjacketing people as “Zionists” and genocide supporters and then going full-bore against them as a result, mean you’re tankies? Not in the literal sense, no. But you’re starting to act like the tankie instances, all of a sudden, when it seems to me like you used to be chill and sensible. You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking and moderating against anyone who had some different kind of politics, and mobbing up against them like Lord of the Flies. Now it seems like you are, and it happened (from my POV at least) all of a sudden out of nowhere, and it’s weird to me.
(Yes, I know what badjacketing means. I placed it in the sentence the way I did to make a point.)
Multithread crashout with enough paragraphs typed to fill a novella. This level of drama might be peak Lemmy thought crime policing. Peak liberal vs tankie on a topic unrelated to it. This thread (an argument loadstone which was irresistible) and the time ya’ll have spent in is incredible. That’s just imo, of course.
But keep going, I’m loving reading all this!
It’s like drama in academia: It starts to become this titanic bitter struggle which causes people to lose their goddamned minds and fight to the ends of the earth, precisely because the stakes are so small.
Well fucking said!
If I had more time and less depression, I’d start making YouTube videos breaking down this drama. Someone is gonna make a lot of money on that idea.
I legit thought about sending Strange Æons a message summarizing some of the main drama. It might be too reddit-y for her to be into, but I agree. Bottom line, it’s a fuckin’ gold mine.
That’s a good idea, need someone Lemmy-brained like she’s Tumblr-brained tho. Those people are forged, the community might still be too young.
Aha! “One of *our* users.”
You said this like it’s some kind of gotcha. It isn’t. Of course we’re going to protect our communities and users above and before other communities and users. At the end of the day, the health and wellbeing of dbzer0 should always be prioritized over the wellbeing of other instances by the mods and admins of our instance. That’s their duty to our users. You’re welcome to complain about that as much as you want, but that’s always going to be how I operate, at least, and I doubt any of the other mods or admins feel all that differently.
Protecting users from being harassed is the same as admins being weird people like .ml, apparently.
that he’s a terminally online weirdo
that he’s a twat,
I mean tbf both of those are at least true
Heh I would think the bigger insult here on the feddi is that any of us are normal or well adjusted.
Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.
That’s your framing of the situation.
An alternative perspective is that the “pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures” is gender gatekeeping.
Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162
We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified
People brought justifications
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291091
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20280072
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20272950
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20253309
In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action
Direct attacks are usually removed
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291178?sort=New&view=Flat
- https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ddc733ed-c006-4c9c-a2d3-a89f1598ec8e.png
You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking
I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments
Cool! Now accuse him of caring way too much about politics, and getting in heated debates about it like a LOSER, speaking as you are from your lemmy.ml address. That’ll make perfect sense too.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291493
Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”
Good God. Okay, you asked for a response, here is it.
An alternative perspective is that the “pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures” is gender gatekeeping. Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.
Using unusual pronouns was never the issue. It’s insanely common on blahaj for people to use neopronouns, and nobody bats an eye, because it’s normal. Pretending that being trans is equivalent to being a dragon (along with things like encouraging other users to self-harm, because of course this person did, because they are a troll and trying to be cruel to trans people) was the issue.
I cannot fathom how me repeating this for the nth time here is somehow going to make a difference, but whatever. You said something, I’ve replied. Can I go now?
People brought justifications
Fair enough, there were some things that people justified, I shouldn’t have said “nothing” I guess. My argument is that there was a ton of stuff that was not justified, and some of the criticism once we got down to actual events motte-and-baileyed its way back from “he is a Zionist who deletes any criticism of Israel and a transphobe” and into “he gets mad arguing about politics and I don’t like that”, and some of it was literal just random abuse and cursing at him, not connected to any type of event or behavior at all.
Direct attacks are usually removed
Direct attacks in some contexts are removed. In other contexts, they’re allowed. That was my point. I’m actually fine with either policy, broadly speaking, but starting to forbid mild attacks towards friends and allow wild, profane, fact-free attacks towards enemies is a bad road to start to go down. That was much more the core of my point.
You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking
I’m am going to be honest with you, I didn’t expect you to make this kind of comments
Pretending that PJ is pro-Israel is flagrantly dishonest. It’s also working very well. That’s a good example. Not sure what your complaint here is, I don’t really want to dig through the thread picking out stuff that’s objectively untrue, but that’s one example if you’re saying you don’t believe me about it.
Also, not sure why it’s not okay for dbzer0 to have a “our users” stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as “losers”
I addressed this already, I never said people who care about politics are losers. I am a person that argues way too much on and off the internet about politics. My point was that for lemmy.ml to suddenly feel like caring about and arguing about politics on the internet makes someone a weirdo is just another example of the sort of tribal “it’s fine with I do it, but when you do it it is evidence you’re some kind of terrible thing” thinking that I am trying to call out.
Satisfied? I’ve already talked about literally all of this, I’m not interested in going back and forth about it just without end. But sure, there’s your response if you want one.
“He was (potentially) trolling, but if noone took the bait…”
Ah yes, let’s just excuse the inciting actions and blame the targets of harassment!
You are a victim blaming moron, and you’ve made it perfectly clear right there.
People can use whatever pronouns they want and anyone pitching a fit about it are the ones who deserve scrutiny as far as I’m concerned.
Drag always rubbed me the wrong way, always ready to jump right to calling people tankies without much interesting conversation to be had.
If someone is trolling I’m going to ban them when they violate an actual rule, like telling people to kys, because anything else opens up the field for people like Pug to declare who is and isn’t trans based on if they like their pronoun choice.
Indeed.
I disagree with your framing. I think you’re being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions. At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.
And yes, we’re going to take action about harassment of our own users, that’s the duty of an instance admin. I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban. Literally the mildest of punishments ever, and you’re at the point of pondering what’s rotten in the whole instance and writing walls of text, over a short term “chill out” ban.
I disagree with your framing. I think you’re being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions.
I can’t count how many times someone on or off blahaj tried to explain that Dragonrider’s trolling, encouraging other users to suicide, things like that, were the core of the issue. If you really want to join Ada in pretending that there’s a whole Lemmy population that’s just frothing at the mouth to dictate to other people what pronouns they can and can’t use, and that was what got them heated up about Dragonrider and nothing about any of the other stuff, I won’t stop you. I started to dig up old messages to put together a timeline, but then I realized I don’t care and I think the issue is pretty clear enough already.
At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.
This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.
I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban.
Personally, I don’t care about the ban itself. I actually agree with you that PugJesus making a whole community to whine about how unfair it is is kind of childish. I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.
This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.
Any admins should act upon harassment of one of their users, especially if the admins of the harassers don’t.
I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.
Isn’t that the concept of !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com since its inception?
Honestly, I think calling what’s ongoing “bullying” is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.
This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.
I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks. Then I can point you to someone about to have a burnout.
Honestly, I think calling what’s ongoing “bullying” is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.
Quotes from the thread:
The person in question is extremely rude and toxic. I have reached out to the LW admins regarding that he seems unfit to be moderating a dozen medium to larger communities. Unfortunately i didnt get any reply.
I think he’s an obnoxious dickhead
I remember his username and him being a twat
He’s a genocide-supporting Zionist radlib
a goddam stalker
an angry turbolib who blames the left (and Eugene in particular, for some reason) for the pathetic failure of the corporate-c**k-sucking Democrats
And so on. There’s plenty more, that’s just what I had patience to dig up.
I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks.
Those aren’t the only two options lol. I’m just saying that “Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!” isn’t the good justification that it sounds like, when you phrase it differently than I just did.
Quotes from the thread:
Not sure which thread you mean, but If you think people expressing their low opinions about someone is “bullying”, then, well you haven’t experienced bullying. And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion? Like, this is a legit absurd argument path.
Those aren’t the only two options lol. I’m just saying that “Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!”
It’s easy to look right when fighting against strawmen.
Downvoting a divide by zero user is apparently harassment.
People say this stuff and then claim that we’re doing bad faith takes. Go figure.
As we know, bad faith is when you defend yourself with evidence and good faith is when you make shit up to slander people and groups.
They are very smart.
That’s literally the reason you cited, and the admin ban, for all of this
If you feel that statement is in bad faith, maybe you should have a talk with Unruffled about their wanton banning of users for “mod abuse” over users downvoting them.
Why, yes s it is bad faith to misrepresent the cause of the mod action and then double down on it.
In any case, feel free to open a yptb post if you’re do certain our cause was trivial.
How about denial of UN-verified sexual assault because it happened against Bad Camp?
It’s like nuance doesn’t exist.
Yes, there were a lot of false accounts of rape on October 7th that were obviously framed based on hateful stereotypes intended to dehumanize. There were also actual rapes that did happen. But to some people everything is black and white and all they care about is whoever is on their ‘side’.
You’ll need to supply evidence for those claims. Creating false accounts of rape is very serious.
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
I’ve read the whole report, that’s a short summary created by the UN investigators. Basic TL;DR of the whole situation:
- Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
- The report stops short of claiming it was done by “Hamas” or in any systematized or sanctioned fashion. A lot of people who took part in the attack were not Hamas, and it was totally impossible to sort out which specific person had done any specific attack, so they didn’t make that claim. It happened a lot though.
- The Israeli government and the New York Times both lied about some specific instances of rape, just because it’s in both of their DNA to make up pro-Israel bullshit. The investigators who made the report debunked some of the Israeli government’s claims, which was easy, and based their findings mostly on objective evidence instead of what anyone from Israel told them.
That’s the short version. Various people have seized on point #2 or point #3 to claim that point #1 didn’t happen, but it did.
Also, I think that some people on Lemmy love bringing this up, because it winds up painting anyone who cares about the truth into the “pro-Israel” side of the debate, and then they can call them a Zionist.
Anyway, yes, the people who did October 7th definitely raped a lot of people. It doesn’t mean Israel should be committing a genocide. If it helps clarify things, the Israeli government has been facilitating aid for Hamas for years because they love having things like October 7th happen and give them excuses, and they love when Hamas rapes people or takes hostages, for the same reason. They wish it would happen every day, and so then they could talk about it and pretend even harder that shooting little kids in the groin or starving entire families to death is totally justified.
Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
Can you specifically cite this? Specifically, I don’t see anything in the report that is as definitive as “was widespread”. The actual words I see in their report is:
there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred
edit: here’s a link to the actual report
From the official report, this is based on patterns that are described as ‘partially or fully naked victims’, but they specifically say that they cannot verify specific instances beyond this type of “circumstantial” evidence or eyewitness testimony. They even say:
It must be noted that witnesses and sources with whom the mission team engaged adopted over time an increasingly cautious and circumspect approach regarding past accounts, including in some cases retracting statements made previously. Some also stated to the mission team that they no longer felt confident in their recollections of other assertions that had appeared in the media.
Considering that these reports are often cited as justification for various war crimes and acts of genocide, it’s extremely important to be precise with language and delineate what is definitively known vs what is assumed.
This is the report:
I have absolutely no interest in letting you bait me into an argument where, by correcting you factually, I’m taking Israel’s side so that people can make one of those 200-comment threads about me and what a big pro-Israel piece of shit I am. That’s the report.
The U.N. envoy focusing on sexual violence in conflict said in a new report Monday that there are “reasonable grounds” to believe Hamas committed rape, “sexualized torture,” and other cruel and inhumane treatment of women during its surprise attack in southern Israel on Oct. 7.
The exaggerated and fictional accusations of rape are serious, like the parading through the streets nonsense.
There is footage of them parading through the streets with the hostages and dead.
Stop denying that Hamas raped innocent civilians. They did, they confessed to it, multiple organisations have verified it, victims have come forth with evidence, and they even filmed themselves.
You are replying to a comment that supports the fact that rape did occur as part of the Oct 7th attack.
Are you not able to understand that they both did rape and ALSO that Israel greatly exaggerated it with false claims to dehumanize?
As far as I’m aware, the most the UN has been able to say definitively is that there are ‘reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred’, but that they were unable to establish the prevalence, overall magnitude, scope, or specific attribution. That’s a pretty far cry from ‘UN-verified sexual assault’
They’ve been harping on Israel to let them do a full investigation but they’ve repeatedly stonewalled them.
I think Philip was referring to the venom and hostility on display from some lately. I said something similar to pug last night. To be clear it isn’t you or anything you’ve done.
And I fully understand the recoiling at some of the hyper reflexive venom on display from a few when anything regarding AI is brought up. It’s a tool, and neither good or bad on its own. But some squeal like drama queens if you even bring it up.
Conversely the other day I had someone from your instance call me, someone who would at least be a syndicist a shit-lib. Because I made a point of calling for solidarity and mutual aid, pointing out that our failures to do so are part of what has led us to the current points of crisis we find ourselves in. I had a bit of a chuckle at the tanky talk. But it wasn’t something completely isolated. Though again I’m gonna reiterate. None of this involves you. And you aren’t their keeper. They are adults who can make their own decisions and mistakes.
Ye, we obviously can have some acerbic users as well, can’t avoid it 12k registrations. But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them. Still doesn’t make the instance tankie thought 😅
Oh for sure. I know I can be a handful myself, as can pug. Generally on the whole though. It’s not been the experience I’ve had with the instance. But it has been something that oddly has come up a number of times lately. Quite honestly I think current events are really testing and breaking a lot of people.
Sadly the horrors are only getting started. Things are going to get so much worse.
Yes people seem to forget that the world is going to hell in a hsndbasket, naturally a lot of people are having way less patience than before
Which is unfortunately the time that it’s needed most.
But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them.
What if they are admins that seem to follow someone or at least constantly be needlessly rude and aggressive towards and lie about a certain individual?
(Not to make any claims or anything about dbzer0 being tankie)
Anyone solid in our instance can request an admin recall with a vote
So, if there is a feedback loop where if dbzer0 users are ultimately okay with an admin harassing people, then the toxicity can persist? As long as they can convince others with lies then the admin can get away with it? That “tend to” in my quote seems to be doing some real heavy lifting, from my perspective.
You’d prefer that one person decide by fiat what’s OK or not? I don’t know about you but I find democracy superior to dictatorship, even when nominally “benevolent” .
For people reading this
I’m not sure that comment serves you the most, but sure
No, you don’t get rid of them. They become mods of multiple communities.
Nobody is accusing the instance of being literal tankies, they are pointing out that the behavior is consistent with common tankie behavior.
Feel free to make a ytpb post about it and we can see what people think about such mods
There are multiple posts there already about the topic including the most popular one that was locked because the mods kept failing to understand what anyone was saying.
If you want to know what people think, check out the up to down vote ratio in the comments. Feel free to accuse .world of brigading like those mods or whatever other stupid excuse based on a lack of understanding how instance populations work.
I was banned because Unruffled is a petty jerk, so I won’t be posting another thread about the same topic of how petty and toxic a small group of prolific mods of dbzer0 communities are. Pointing that out is clearly not allowed in yptb.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/modlog/961853
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48662871
Holy FUCK lol
I knew things were getting weird but I had no idea. I can’t even begin to unpack all the layers of this. There’s too much.
“How dare you speak ill of the people above you, disagree with their decisions and explain why even, on this YPTB sub. That is classed as ‘pissy’ and ‘shitty’ and will earn a perma ban for those reasons. Meanwhile, if you have a grudge against a ‘turbolib’, here are some handy slurs you might want to use…”
I still also can’t fathom the apparently successful effort to start to split people into “pro AI” and “anti AI” camps.
Sure, buddy.
Tbh, dbzer0 was always kind of sus to me
Not sure if this has changed, but them being firm about not defederating hexbear was a huge 🚩, I have no idea if they are tankies or faking the anarchists thing, but I knew I had to instance jump.
Same, it always felt off to me. Maybe it’s the tankies from the triad that were block and couldn’t get their propaganda out so they are hiding behind a non tankie isntance
It’s “anarchist” which more often than not means they’ve never thought about their political positions beyond the very surface level because if they did they’d realize it doesn’t make any sense. Ask a group of anarchists how large scale infrastructure would be built or how societal conflicts would be resolved in their utopia and watch how their ideology completely falls apart.
It sounds like you think Anarchism is the lack of a government. It isn’t. It’s the lack of hierarchy. Government is still possible, and arguably required.
I don’t think it’s Anarchists who don’t know what they’re talking about.
Ask a group of anarchists…
Well yes of course, because “anarchism” is a very broad term that covers a lot of different ideologies. Two persons that both might say they are “anarchists” could disagree on a whole lot.
Maybe you should think a bit more complexly about what anarchism is (though I’m not trying to excuse any bad behaving instances out there).
Yes, yes it’s the anarchists that haven’t given any thought to their political beliefs. Not like the super smart Giga Chad Galaxy brained geniuses. That keep making overcomplicated centralized unanswerable structures of power. And then shrugging confused every time it turns against them. Because as we all know doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome is brilliance.
Tap for spoiler
Anarchism is much more nuanced that that.
But if anybody on DB0 ever speaks ill of Tankies and China they get fucking ratio’d, how weird is that?
Every ideology exists on some kind of spectrum. As far as I can tell, pure capitalism, pure communism, and pure anarchism all bring significant problems when you try to apply them that are unique to their own strengths and weaknesses. You have to work things out and use common sense. But, talking about political philosophy and trying new principles for governance can still be a good thing, even if the as-described form is often a failure if people try to apply it in a way that is “pure” ideologically.
This is definitely not new. They were very much pushing the “Kamala and Trump are the same” narrative before the election.
Receipts for that?
I mean, I didn’t keep a log or anything. But a quick trip through your admin’s post history pre-election starts to paint a pretty good picture of what the culture was like there:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/29417533
Absolutely.
Palestine genocide got astroturfed by that instance heavily just before USA elections.
Similarly feddit.org/uk seems to have an increasing ampliganding accounts.
Turn on the user’s instance display in your client if you can.
It’s like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the “anti-AI troll” banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff… it’s fuckin’ nuts. It came out of nowhere.
At least the drag and PugJesus issues are related, as that’s why PJ got banned on Blahaj: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162
I pointed this out to you in the !fediverselore@lemmy.ca thread and you acknowledged it: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20253309
Not sure why you’re saying it’s coming out of nowhere when you are aware of that link.
People aren’t following you around, they reply to comments you make about the whole situation
The “anti-AI troll” come up due to this comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20270123
At least the drag and PugJesus issues are related, as PugJesus tried to move the !196 community after getting banned: https://feddit.org/post/7025680/4263481
You have repeatedly said this despite the fact that I had nothing to do with moving the 196 comm. I don’t know why the fuck you keep spreading this lie despite the fact that I’ve corrected you on it several times already.
Commenting from this account as I couldn’t see you from my dbzer0 one
I have corrected this in the meantime as you probably know: https://lemmy.world/post/33461561/18437409
I pointed this out to you in the !fediverselore@lemmy.ca thread and you acknowledged it: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20253309
Here’s PJ’s response as they’re banned from dbzero atm: https://feddit.uk/post/33315963/18929221
I had a quick look
Man, you definitely were running some major hostility towards world at one point. I’ll concede that the comment was probably overstating the point, and definitely unnecessarily hostile, but it also wasn’t unprovoked.
I’m not going to go that route again
Not sure why you’re saying it’s coming out of nowhere when you are aware of that link.
I didn’t say the issues were unrelated, I just said the stupidest Lemmy argument (among some stiff competition) was back and getting debated to death again for some fuckin’ reason, along with some other stupid arguments. What the fuckin’ reason was wasn’t part of what I was trying to say.
People aren’t following you around, they reply to comments you make about the whole situation
@eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com became very upset that an admin (he kept emphasizing that, like I need to treat someone different because they’re an admin, IDK, bow and scrape? It was nothing related to admin duties, they were just weighing in in a massive whiny slapfight (on both sides)) had replied to my comment and I hadn’t responded to them. One, two. I explained myself, they didn’t like the explanation, and they started jumping into among other places a 4-day-old thread to try to continue the argument.
Like I said in that reply, I saw absolutely no point in getting in a new slapfight about it, told them so, and they really didn’t like that explanation and tried to start the slapfight anyway in multiple threads (sort of accusing me of doing something wrong by not wanting to? IDK, it’s weird, check it out.)
Anyway, that’s weird, following me into random additional old threads to try to continue the argument I’d already explicitly told them I wasn’t interested in is what I referred to as “following me around.”
I’ve been following things from afar.
they started jumping into among other places a 4-day-old thread to try to continue the argument.
People who use “New comments” are going to see new comments posted, whatever old the threads are. I use that filter, and I regularly comment on weeks old threads to reply to someone.
Eugene’s comments on the 4-days old thread came up when you mentioned that UM was involved (whey they were not, and you know I’m not a fan of UM), and it was made by another user: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49344640/20291854
he kept emphasizing that, like I need to treat someone different because they’re an admin, IDK, bow and scrape?
The context is
- you making statements such as
Good fuckin’ God man. dbzer0, we love you, quit trippin’. Just relax. Not everyone you don’t like or agree with is “abusive.” ( https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20248829 )
- a db0 admin replying: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20288502
If you accuse an instance of power tripping, be ready to answer when they reply, otherwise it just seems to be arguing in bad faith.
People who use “New comments” are going to see new comments posted, whatever old the threads are. I use that filter, and I regularly comment on weeks old threads to reply to someone.
Reply to them on the same topic you’ve been talking with them about in some other thread, which they told you they weren’t interested in discussing further, angry that they’re not giving you responses you think you deserve back in the original thread? If so, I think you should stop doing that, however it is that you’re finding their messages in other threads.
If you accuse an instance of power tripping, be ready to answer when they reply, otherwise it just seems to be arguing in bad faith.
I mean maybe that’s fair. The whole message was so hostile and dishonest that I couldn’t really see any point to giving a reply though. Also, like I said at the time, PugJesus already gave a pretty detailed reply that more or less mirrored what I would want to say about it (which Unruffled of course did not respond to.) Also, I’d already covered my POV on it to death in other comments by that point.
Excerpts of the message I didn’t reply to:
he’s an angry turbolib who blames the left (and Eugene in particular, for some reason) for the pathetic failure of the corporate-c**k-sucking Democrats to defeat Donald Trump. There is plenty of evidence for all of those things.
PJ has a bad temper, and that he’s been losing his shit more and more lately. He even states as such in his profile. While I do feel empathy for the fact he lives in chronic pain
I mean, what’s the difference between your position here and something like, “Harvey Weinstein has made lots of great movies and nobody else has complained about him, so that woman must be lying”? There is no difference.
What the fuck am I supposed to do with that stuff lol
When db0 came in here and talked about the exact same issue, but in a non-frothing manner, I had a normal conversation with them. I don’t agree with the points they raised, and they presumably think I’m wrong as hell, but it’s fine, we can just talk. Because they didn’t accuse me of protecting any sexual predators or call anyone cock suckers, we got to hash it out, which is how it’s supposed to work. I did the same with Ada over in that thread; I don’t agree with her but I told her directly what the issue I was trying to communicate was, and we got to talk about it, there’s no particular bad blood (at least not from my side), it’s just a conversation.
I don’t feel though like I need to engage in every conversation no matter what kind of unhinged nonsense is coming at me from the other side, or how low the probability of it ever going anywhere, whatever little badge is attached to the person’s username.
PugJesus already gave a pretty detailed reply that more or less mirrored what I would want to say about it (which Unruffled of course did not respond to.)
Nobody on dbzer0 saw that reply, and even less could respond to it as he’s banned from the instance.
Maybe that’s the piece missing to solve that matter.
Sounds like a dbzer0 problem. I have a longstanding belief that, if you go out of your way to silence somebody, you don’t then get to complain that you can’t hear what they have to say.
He wasn’t silenced, he was banned for targeted harassment of users.
I went through that thread on LW, PJ didn’t really make that much of a good case for himself
@HikingVet@lemmy.ca clarify please
Pug has always been right on the Tankie line. I’ve had multiple accounts banned after interactions with them.
Receipts?
Pug pretty regularly pushes back against tankies, so I would love to see what you’re basing that take on…
What did he accuse you of doing?
Edit: Wait. How did PugJesus ban your account?
I’m assuming liberal use of discord and the report buttons. Zero actual evidence of even trying to understand. Just seems highly correlated.
As for what I do? I suppose I don’t feel we need an entire global system breakdown to fix some of the world’s challenges (I can be roughly described as a centrist).
So you don’t have proof of your accusations.
Ah, so I’m right. And now we see the people with a high school emotional maturity come out.
Edit: Yep, knew how this was gonna go.
My guy, you’re not even on topic 🤣
Trying to turn this from pug is a borderline Tankie to court presentable evidence that pug doesn’t get people banned 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ah
Okay then, carry on lol
!tankiejerk@lemmy.world would welcome this!
It’s not only that, they complain about everything with such fury cant they be happy about anything they have in life?
Piefed dot world needs alexandrite or at least to get the interface buttons working much faster. I click upvote and it shows up like 5-10 seconds later. Without infinite scrolling I will never make it to page 3 either. That is all the interruption my brain needs for me to be more productive and useful and not on social media so it has to go lol. Self checkout needed w/infinite scroll drool
we’re currently looking into some performance issues, we’re looking into updating to the latest version this weekend, which fixes a few potential deadlocks. lately we’ve been getting DB deadlocks rather frequently, which results in significantly worse performance until we restart one of the services.
That’s my main issue. I like having posts hide when I upvote/downvote them.
Get rid of transparency? What’s happened now?
A lot of Tankies like ML and Hexbear users promote tearing the US government down, they also favored and promoted Donald Trump and take Russia’s side in the Ukraine war.
So basically they claim to be making things better by “removing democracy and transparency.”
The harder America and Israel genocide Palestinians, the harder Liberals start whining about Lemmy.ml and now even misusing the word Genocide.
All while supporting the side which is committing genocide.
Good on you for raising awareness to the real issue during a genocide and distracting from other issues, like genocide.
That has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or community. Do you complain in gaming communities because their discussions distract from the genocide? Disliking tankies and their authoritarian views is completely divorced from supporting Israel or the genocide they’re committing. I know this might be a tad difficult to understand, but you can be against Tankie authoritarianism and against American and Israeli imperialism at the same time. One does not require support for the other.
This post has nothing to do with this community. It is not even a screenshot of anything.
